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[Music]

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this is Leslie Kane and you're listening

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to that UFO podcast

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hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO

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podcast my name is Andy and I have been

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fortunate to speak to many people on

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this podcast and hear them share some

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incredible experiences Calvin Parker Jim

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semivan members of the experiencer group

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and Whitley strieber among many others

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my guest today is a former United States

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Air Force medic and EMT his academic

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achievements include a bachelor's degree

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in Psychology from Park University and a

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Juris doctor from Western Michigan as

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well as this he has a retired lawyer and

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former Assistant Attorney General I

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think I've covered the bases so I'd like

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to welcome podcasts through the podcast

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author and researcher Terry Lovelace

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Terry welcome to the podcast thank you

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Andy it's a real pleasure to be here

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now that's quite the background you've

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got which makes the story all the more

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incredible I think

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um so I want to ask you Terry does your

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story with the UFO phenomenon begin in

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1977 or does it go back further

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you know it really goes back to early

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childhood

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and that that seems to be uh common

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among a lot of the experiences that I

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talk to uh I had experiences at age four

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five six all the way through about seven

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um but the the real the real big event

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in my life happened in 1977 while I was

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on active duty in the United States Air

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Force

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so let's talk about that then and we'll

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Circle back later to some of those those

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childhood incidents and of course you're

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famous for your book and the event the

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incident at Devil's Den can you just

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tell me first whereas the devil is dead

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it sounds very ominous and what was it

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that brought you to being there you know

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it is ominous that that's the right word

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to use

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um I spent six years on active duty in

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the Air Force I worked as an EMT in an

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emergency room and my uh co-worker and

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my best friend uh Tobias and I

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uh

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we were both City kids I grew up in St

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Louis Missouri he grew up in Detroit

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Michigan and uh

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we worked the midnight shift 11 P.M to 8

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A.M in the morning

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and one night he says you know he says

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hey man I got an idea let's go camping

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and I'm like camping you know what what

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do I know about camping I've never been

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camping in my life and I knew he'd never

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been camping in his life

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and he's like no no think about it it'd

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be fun you know it'd be out we'll be in

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the outdoors we'll get some fresh air

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it'll be uh it'll be a blast he says I

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got the perfect place to go

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he spoke with someone who was a

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fisherman who told him about this place

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called Devil's Den State Park

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and uh real quick I did some research on

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it when I wrote the book in 2017.

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and Devil's Den because I wanted to find

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out where did they get the name devil

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how did that negative that diabolic

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connotation get attached to this park

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and I went back as far as I could go and

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I found that there were two Native

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American tribes that owned the land

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one owned half the other on the other

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half

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and I contacted a Medicine Woman

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from Nakato c-a-t-o Canto tribe

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in uh

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in Northwest Arkansas I forget the name

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of the little town

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and ask her if she'd talk to me and she

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didn't she gave me

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um

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a brief history of

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Devil's Den as far as their people are

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concerned and she told me that as far

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back as they don't have Britain they

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only have oral Traditions as far back as

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oral tradition will take them

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at Devil's Den State Park has always

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been cursed ground that it was a place

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where they would Transit through to get

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from point A to point B but they never

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camped there never hunted there never

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fished there

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um

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she said it was cursed ground I uh

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I Then followed up I had a friend with

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the who from University of Michigan in

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Ann Arbor who had a friend through a

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connection to the University of Arkansas

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uh and it spoke to the anthropology

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department and an archaeologist who had

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done excavations all around the area

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and

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she told me that they had done

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excavations all around the area

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um but she said it was very unique

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inside Devil's Den

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they've never found a single artifact

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not a single Flint tool not that

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evidence of burnt charcoal there's

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absolutely no evidence of any human

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habitation inside that Park area and all

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around it there's there's evidence uh

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going back thousands of years

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so uh she said it's it's a unique place

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and there have been a lot of people

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disappear uh mysteriously from Devil's

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Den State Park

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I can give you two real quick examples

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of the kind of set the stage one one

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happened the first one I found happened

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in 1947 and it was a little girl seven

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years of age named Catherine Vanoss and

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her family was from Pittsburgh

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Pennsylvania

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and they took a trip in a camper uh

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shortly after World War II there was a

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kind of a camping craze that went

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through the United States and people

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were buying these pull behind campers

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and the family it was the mother father

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uh two younger siblings and then

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Catherine van allst as I said age seven

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and they drove and they plotted their

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trip on their way south to El Paso Texas

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to spend they were spend two nights in

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the campgrounds at Devil's Den State

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Park

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so they got to the campground

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have a fine time get all set up had a uh

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an uneventful night and then the

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following morning of their second day

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um

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the mother is putting breakfast on on a

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picnic table

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and at the Camp's Campground

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and the two boys are running around the

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camper and uh

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the mother looks over and says boys

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where's your sister

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and they're like well she's right here

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well she wasn't

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and they said we swear she was right

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here and you know mother is annoyed but

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not not too freaked out she says go find

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your sister so of course they run to the

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restrooms and they run to the kiosk in

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the ranger station and they're they're

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looking all over for their sister and

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they come back in there there they're

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freaked out they're like we can't we

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can't find her

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so this commotion gets Dad involved and

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he comes out and uh

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he's half panicked he's like let's find

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her

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because this Campground is in the middle

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of very thick forest extremely thick

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forest all the way around High Rocky

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terrain

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um

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it'd be difficult for her to manage she

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was in a swimsuit with uh like flip-flop

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sandals

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and it'd be uh it'd be very difficult

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terrain for her to get around in

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um

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but they get other campers involved

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can't find her they're calling her name

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they get Park Rangers involved they're

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calling her can't find her uh the search

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expands that this is a state park and

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there is a uh a federal Park

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on the other side on the east side uh

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and a larger Park called Ozark national

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forest and there were a lot of Park

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Rangers assigned there and they came

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over they got involved in this hunt and

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then first night passes no Catherine's

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second night passes and the search is

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set up the last seven days on the

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seventh day it'll it'll it'll shift from

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a rescue to a recovery and of course

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that'll knock down the urgency and uh

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she'll be a lost little girl

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on the seventh day

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there was a

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a group of students there were student

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volunteers from the University of

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Arkansas who came in by The busloads Who

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were out helping hunt for this little

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girl

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Porter Chadwick what's his name Porter

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Chadwick is walked up on a high

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elevation a bluff

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and is yelling for Catherine

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and

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elevation of about

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760 feet above the campground and the

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terrain was so Steep and Rocky that it's

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a zigzag

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Switchback trail that you have to walk

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through to get up there no idea how she

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did that in in sandals so he carries you

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down to the campground little girls been

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missing for six nights seven days

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back at the campground they have a

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doctor there

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she is a hundred percent hydrated

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she has not lost an ounce of weight

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according to her mother her mother said

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quote that her her hair smelled clean

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she had washed it the evening before she

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went missing

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and they asked her they said well you

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know Catherine where have you been

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and she said I don't know I just heard

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somebody call my name and I thought you

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sent them to get me and they asked her

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how did you get up here

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and she said I don't know

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I I tried to find her I had no luck of

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course she may have had a married name

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1947's a long time ago uh God I would

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love to have talked to her

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likewise Porter Chadwick I couldn't find

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him either but it's well documented in

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our newspaper articles both in Kansas

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City Star and the Pittsburgh Press

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so it's just an amazing creepy story

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uh yeah and as a father I'm glad the

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little girl gets found to hit that there

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at the end I can't imagine yeah yeah

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it's got so many Hallmarks of different

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classic cases of abduction but then

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returning you know messing time is

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assumed within that and like you say

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it's one of those it's a shame that it

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was so long ago the little girl was left

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a full life I hope and it's potentially

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still with us or passed on at this time

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and same with the student who found her

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but yeah and obviously we're going to

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get one to talk about your case you said

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there was a second case as well

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that there was I'll mention that just

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briefly when I was researching uh

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Devil's Den for my book

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um coincidentally in August of 2017

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um there was a young man from

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Bartlesville Oklahoma

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uh and his name was Rodney Letterman

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and this has turned into kind of a

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famous case I'm right in the middle of

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writing this book and I'm paying

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attention to the local press down there

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to trying to collect as many of these

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00:11:35,630 --> 00:11:33,420
odd stories as I can find

279
00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:35,640
this Rodney Letterman and his friend

280
00:11:40,610 --> 00:11:37,860
from Bartlesville Oklahoma drive down to

281
00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:40,620
Arkansas to go to the state park but the

282
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:42,060
idea that they were going to walk across

283
00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:44,399
What's called the Butterfield Trail the

284
00:11:49,790 --> 00:11:47,640
Butterfield Trail is uh mostly paved

285
00:11:51,949 --> 00:11:49,800
it's an easy walk it cuts through the

286
00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:51,959
park it gets its name from the

287
00:11:58,850 --> 00:11:54,360
Butterfield Stagecoach line which ran

288
00:12:00,530 --> 00:11:58,860
through there until 1859 when the uh uh

289
00:12:01,610 --> 00:12:00,540
war between the states or the Civil War

290
00:12:03,710 --> 00:12:01,620
depending on

291
00:12:07,490 --> 00:12:03,720
where you're from

292
00:12:09,410 --> 00:12:07,500
um started and uh

293
00:12:11,329 --> 00:12:09,420
their their plan was to just walk the

294
00:12:13,610 --> 00:12:11,339
trail now Rodney Letterman had asthma

295
00:12:15,170 --> 00:12:13,620
and he carried an inhaler with him

296
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:15,180
normally because he'd have an asthma

297
00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:16,800
attack and he'd need the inhaler to

298
00:12:22,430 --> 00:12:18,500
breathe

299
00:12:23,569 --> 00:12:22,440
so they're into their walk and he says

300
00:12:25,970 --> 00:12:23,579
to his friend

301
00:12:27,769 --> 00:12:25,980
you know I'm I'm short of breath I left

302
00:12:29,449 --> 00:12:27,779
my inhaler in the truck could you run

303
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:29,459
get it for me

304
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:31,440
and his friends like sure no no worries

305
00:12:36,410 --> 00:12:34,200
man friend runs back to the parking lot

306
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:36,420
maybe a half mile

307
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:39,440
grabs uh Rodney's inhaler from the truck

308
00:12:44,690 --> 00:12:42,720
runs back gets back

309
00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:44,700
and there's no Rodney Letterman he's

310
00:12:47,930 --> 00:12:46,920
gone his cell phone is lying on the

311
00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:47,940
ground

312
00:12:51,530 --> 00:12:49,560
now I don't know about you but my cell

313
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,540
phone's either in front of me or it's in

314
00:12:55,490 --> 00:12:53,279
my pocket but I wouldn't I wouldn't

315
00:12:58,910 --> 00:12:55,500
leave it on the on the ground

316
00:13:02,449 --> 00:12:58,920
and just just like with um

317
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,459
just like with uh Catherine Vanoss on

318
00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:04,320
either side of this Trail the terrain is

319
00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:07,620
Rocky and rough elevated uh thick

320
00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:10,200
vegetation so a guy having an asthma

321
00:13:15,170 --> 00:13:13,260
attack you know might step off the trail

322
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:15,180
for a few feet to relieve himself but

323
00:13:19,009 --> 00:13:18,000
he's not physically capable of taking a

324
00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:19,019
hike

325
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:24,180
uh so curiously the park rangers reacted

326
00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:25,440
immediately

327
00:13:28,910 --> 00:13:27,000
they weren't like oh your friends

328
00:13:30,170 --> 00:13:28,920
probably just want to walk don't worry

329
00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:30,180
about it there was none of that they

330
00:13:34,610 --> 00:13:32,100
didn't minimize it

331
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:34,620
um they took it very seriously and they

332
00:13:39,889 --> 00:13:37,440
organized the search immediately

333
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:39,899
and just like Catherine van alst I guess

334
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:42,000
the standard is to run the search for

335
00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:47,100
seven days uh and in 2017 technology had

336
00:13:51,710 --> 00:13:49,500
improved they had you know helicopters

337
00:13:53,389 --> 00:13:51,720
with flear the forward-looking infrared

338
00:13:56,269 --> 00:13:53,399
radar where they could grab a heat

339
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,279
signature off of a human being walking

340
00:14:01,310 --> 00:13:58,800
at night or in the daytime

341
00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:01,320
so they had a lot of resources and they

342
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,060
devoted all of their resources to

343
00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:05,519
finding Rodney Letterman

344
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:07,980
and in the beginning in the prologue of

345
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:10,260
incident at Devil's Den I wrote this is

346
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:13,560
all I know is that he is missing and the

347
00:14:19,250 --> 00:14:16,560
family paid a private firm to search for

348
00:14:21,769 --> 00:14:19,260
him in October of 20 up through the end

349
00:14:24,829 --> 00:14:21,779
of October in 2017 and then the money

350
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:24,839
ran out and and Rodney was just gone

351
00:14:28,730 --> 00:14:26,160
yeah

352
00:14:31,730 --> 00:14:28,740
so I I promised the readers that I would

353
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:31,740
let them know if uh if there was an

354
00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:34,920
update and there there was an update in

355
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:35,820
uh

356
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:38,959
February of 2019

357
00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:41,459
there was a young couple walking up the

358
00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:44,360
Butterfield Trail a man and a woman

359
00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:46,920
early 20s

360
00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:48,600
and

361
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:51,420
there's a log on the side of the road

362
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:53,459
that kind of

363
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,160
differentiates where the path is from

364
00:15:01,850 --> 00:14:58,079
the forest they have these logs lying

365
00:15:05,689 --> 00:15:01,860
around just to create a pathway

366
00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:05,699
and sitting on top of this log in dead

367
00:15:11,389 --> 00:15:06,959
center

368
00:15:14,210 --> 00:15:11,399
the girl says is that an albino turtle

369
00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:14,220
and a friend is like what and he looks

370
00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:16,260
and um

371
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:18,360
walks over to the log

372
00:15:21,889 --> 00:15:21,120
and dead center of the log right in the

373
00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:21,899
middle

374
00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:26,100
there is a diamond-shaped object

375
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:28,860
that looks like bone

376
00:15:34,370 --> 00:15:31,980
and he walks over and he picks it up and

377
00:15:36,290 --> 00:15:34,380
he looks at it and he says I think this

378
00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:36,300
is I think this is human I think this is

379
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:38,279
part of the skull

380
00:15:41,870 --> 00:15:41,040
now but now when I read this

381
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:41,880
um

382
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:44,399
out of the Bartlesville examiner my

383
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:45,839
first thought was

384
00:15:50,689 --> 00:15:48,480
that that's a staged crime scene I mean

385
00:15:54,170 --> 00:15:50,699
back to my days as a felony prosecutor

386
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:54,180
uh I I think how would

387
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:55,440
How would

388
00:16:01,129 --> 00:15:59,040
part of someone's skull uh reached white

389
00:16:03,949 --> 00:16:01,139
from the Sun how would that suddenly end

390
00:16:07,069 --> 00:16:03,959
up on this Trail where thousands of

391
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:07,079
people walk on a weekly basis and no one

392
00:16:11,210 --> 00:16:09,000
saw or noticed it park rangers are

393
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:11,220
through there all the time so this just

394
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:12,660
appeared

395
00:16:17,569 --> 00:16:15,480
uh and the park rangers

396
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:17,579
uh did the correct thing they treated it

397
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,160
with a forensic protocol they collected

398
00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:22,800
it they sent it to on a hunch they sent

399
00:16:27,889 --> 00:16:24,600
it to the Bartlesville Oklahoma medical

400
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:27,899
examiner who conducted a DNA test and

401
00:16:32,930 --> 00:16:30,240
verified that it was indeed the skull

402
00:16:34,129 --> 00:16:32,940
cap the very top of Rodney Letterman's

403
00:16:36,290 --> 00:16:34,139
skull

404
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,300
and that is all that's ever been found

405
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:38,639
of Rodney Letterman not a stitch of

406
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:40,440
clothing or

407
00:16:47,090 --> 00:16:42,240
anyhow

408
00:16:50,329 --> 00:16:47,100
so just another example of

409
00:16:51,829 --> 00:16:50,339
of the weirdness that goes on there also

410
00:16:56,990 --> 00:16:51,839
and also while I'm writing the book in

411
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:57,000
2017 a young woman in her late 20s

412
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:57,839
um

413
00:17:01,790 --> 00:17:00,000
was in the park and came up missing and

414
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:01,800
they found her at the base of a 100 foot

415
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:04,559
tall Cliff young woman little kids at

416
00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:05,360
home

417
00:17:10,189 --> 00:17:07,740
and they called her to Suicide the

418
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:10,199
medical examiner said it was a suicide

419
00:17:13,010 --> 00:17:12,000
the mother claimed her daughter had not

420
00:17:15,010 --> 00:17:13,020
been depressed didn't take any

421
00:17:18,049 --> 00:17:15,020
medication for depression

422
00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:18,059
so there were you know two deaths

423
00:17:21,770 --> 00:17:20,280
attributable to Devil's Den in the year

424
00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:21,780
2017.

425
00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:24,740
so uh

426
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,260
yeah are you familiar with David polides

427
00:17:33,650 --> 00:17:31,440
and is missing 4-1-1 work as well

428
00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:33,660
yeah much of that I've just watched the

429
00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:35,700
UFO connection before Christmas again

430
00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:37,620
just after and I'd watched his missing

431
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,500
4-1-1 the hunted and so many again of

432
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:42,480
those Hallmarks people missing no

433
00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:45,600
clothing turning up odd Parts again

434
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:47,640
showing up far later where they had

435
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:50,640
already searched areas and there's a lot

436
00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:52,020
of things here that are very difficult

437
00:17:57,529 --> 00:17:55,260
to attribute to a bear attack or some

438
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,539
kind of wolf attack you know

439
00:18:01,610 --> 00:17:59,520
um it just doesn't always add up does it

440
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,620
and obviously we're we're getting at is

441
00:18:06,169 --> 00:18:03,600
there and I hate to say this because

442
00:18:08,270 --> 00:18:06,179
we're dealing with a serious subject and

443
00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:08,280
there's there's a mother and you know a

444
00:18:14,029 --> 00:18:10,980
son and children going missing and many

445
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:14,039
times these people don't return and to

446
00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:15,840
to then have a conversation about

447
00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:18,360
potential alien abduction

448
00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:20,340
it's very difficult to have that isn't

449
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:22,020
it and put that in there as a potential

450
00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:23,160
outcome when you're dealing with

451
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:25,380
something so serious but someone like

452
00:18:30,350 --> 00:18:28,140
yourself knows all too well the the

453
00:18:31,730 --> 00:18:30,360
subject of alien abduction as itself a

454
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,740
serious one

455
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:33,600
yeah you know I I spoke with David

456
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:36,900
politis uh and in his missing 4-1-1

457
00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:40,080
series the fourth book in the series is

458
00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:43,020
entitled The Devil is in details

459
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:44,820
and that's a really interesting read

460
00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:46,860
because uh David Pilates is a

461
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:48,780
data-driven kind of guy kind of like

462
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:52,080
myself in some ways and um

463
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:55,200
he's big on demographics and statistics

464
00:19:03,350 --> 00:18:59,760
and he found that parks and nature

465
00:19:06,169 --> 00:19:03,360
preserves and uh uh

466
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:06,179
you know open area under the under the

467
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:07,980
purview of the Bureau of Land Management

468
00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:10,020
managed by the US government but not

469
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:13,140
really these kind of places

470
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,500
if they have the name devil Diablo some

471
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:18,960
type of reference to the devil in the

472
00:19:22,730 --> 00:19:21,600
name seem to have a much higher

473
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,740
occurrence

474
00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:24,720
of people going missing

475
00:19:28,850 --> 00:19:26,220
and you know there's a Devil's Pond

476
00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:28,860
Devil's Tower devil's cave the name is

477
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:31,020
there's literally hundreds of

478
00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:34,620
iterations of uh the name devil

479
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:36,960
um but yeah I thought that that was that

480
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,880
was fascinating research to find that

481
00:19:42,529 --> 00:19:40,559
out I don't what's the connection who

482
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:42,539
knows maybe coincidental

483
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,160
I don't know

484
00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:46,640
as far as the UFO connection goes

485
00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:50,520
obviously I have my thoughts on that and

486
00:19:57,890 --> 00:19:53,220
my convictions are pretty strong

487
00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:00,289
and private will allude to that

488
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:02,520
but I don't think he wants to come out

489
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:05,100
and and and make that statement that

490
00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:08,220
that's a real possibility and I think

491
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,539
he's concerned and it's probably a

492
00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:11,520
legitimate concern because he's a data

493
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:13,500
driven guy he likes he likes proof he

494
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:16,740
likes empirical proof yeah um and and

495
00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:19,200
obviously no one has that yet

496
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,820
and uh

497
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:23,520
but you know it's a strange Place weird

498
00:20:27,650 --> 00:20:26,039
stuff happens there uh

499
00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:27,660
well when you say that there's that lack

500
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:30,780
of proof living that experience for you

501
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,940
is obviously all the proof you need then

502
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:35,039
that's what obviously you're best known

503
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,600
for as well and I think you've set up

504
00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:38,400
incredibly well because those are a

505
00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:40,740
couple of fascinating cases of a very

506
00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:43,260
strange area and again you have

507
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:45,780
potentially or goes without saying the

508
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:47,640
most famous one of all if you want to

509
00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:50,880
get us back to 1977 let's talk through

510
00:20:55,970 --> 00:20:53,160
your own experience Terry at Devil's Den

511
00:20:58,669 --> 00:20:55,980
yes let me let me um

512
00:21:01,070 --> 00:20:58,679
we uh

513
00:21:03,529 --> 00:21:01,080
we plan a four day weekend we got to

514
00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:03,539
clear it with our employer the Air Force

515
00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:05,580
and uh

516
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:07,500
we left we were both stationed at

517
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:09,600
Whiteman Air Force Base it's still there

518
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,650
and we uh drove six and a half hours

519
00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:17,039
south

520
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:20,100
to the Missouri Arkansas border Devil's

521
00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:22,860
Den State Park a bus right up next to

522
00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:25,080
the Ozark National Forest

523
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:27,480
both of these Parks were they're huge

524
00:21:33,950 --> 00:21:31,260
they're just consume a big chunk of

525
00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:33,960
Northwest Arkansas

526
00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:35,880
and uh

527
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:37,980
we drove down there with the intention

528
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:40,080
that we weren't going to stay

529
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:42,480
in the campgrounds

530
00:21:45,950 --> 00:21:44,580
now I didn't understand that at first I

531
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:45,960
told my friend you know I was staying a

532
00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:47,640
campground we got hot showers we got

533
00:21:51,710 --> 00:21:50,580
water we got Electric hookup and you

534
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:51,720
know and they made the point you know

535
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:53,039
look if we're gonna if we're gonna do

536
00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,179
that we're gonna have people to the

537
00:21:57,770 --> 00:21:56,580
right of us people to the left of us uh

538
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:57,780
he said you know you might as well camp

539
00:22:02,090 --> 00:21:59,880
in you know Walmart's parking lot or

540
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:02,100
something he says you know let's be real

541
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:04,559
Outdoorsman you know here are two guys I

542
00:22:09,409 --> 00:22:07,440
was 22 at the time

543
00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:09,419
Toby was 23

544
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:11,580
neither of us have ever been camping a

545
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:12,720
day in our life and here we're gonna

546
00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:15,360
we're gonna be real Outdoors we're gonna

547
00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:17,640
we're gonna go find our own place to

548
00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:18,600
camp

549
00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:21,659
so we Dodge the ranger station and we

550
00:22:24,169 --> 00:22:23,400
took a road

551
00:22:26,570 --> 00:22:24,179
um

552
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,580
and it's still kind of

553
00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:28,559
I don't understand how we found this

554
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:30,600
place but we did

555
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,260
by happenstance we we took a paved road

556
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:36,720
to turn to gravel to turn to dirt and we

557
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:39,120
came to a chain across the road that

558
00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:41,640
prevented us from entering and we were

559
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:44,280
able to get around the chain it was

560
00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:47,280
really just there was a lock looped

561
00:22:50,990 --> 00:22:48,900
around the end of it to form like a

562
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:51,000
noose and it was draped over a nail and

563
00:22:55,549 --> 00:22:52,860
opposing post

564
00:22:57,409 --> 00:22:55,559
and uh there were warning signs you know

565
00:22:58,970 --> 00:22:57,419
no it didn't keep out no honey no

566
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:58,980
camping no fishing

567
00:23:01,789 --> 00:23:00,780
I thought it was some kind of Nature

568
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:01,799
Preserve

569
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:04,320
I found out in 2017

570
00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:06,720
we weren't actually in Devil's Den State

571
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:08,100
Park

572
00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:10,559
that that area is owned by the Bureau of

573
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,299
Land Management

574
00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:14,640
and I may have sent you some photographs

575
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:17,240
of Devil's Den it's an elevated

576
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:20,340
plateau-like uh and the top of this

577
00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:21,780
plateau

578
00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:25,620
is is clear-cut now I didn't bother

579
00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:27,539
looking for it on Google Maps because I

580
00:23:30,649 --> 00:23:28,740
thought you know this place has to be

581
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:30,659
covered by 40 year old mature trees by

582
00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:31,440
now

583
00:23:36,049 --> 00:23:33,960
and it's not

584
00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:36,059
um there's still just a dirt road that

585
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:38,280
goes straight up it uh and when you're

586
00:23:42,770 --> 00:23:40,740
on the top of this Plateau you are level

587
00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:42,780
with the Treetops of the surrounding

588
00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:50,630
but the U.S government spends taxpayer

589
00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:52,980
dollars to send a guy up there with a

590
00:23:57,970 --> 00:23:56,280
tractor to clear cut the top of this of

591
00:24:00,350 --> 00:23:57,980
this plateau

592
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:00,360
uh so there's nothing growing up there

593
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,840
and my guess my question is why

594
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:05,760
um but that that's what's done

595
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:08,460
have you ever had a a good reason as to

596
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:10,020
why they may do that has anyone ever

597
00:24:14,029 --> 00:24:11,820
came back to you to say actually here's

598
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:14,039
a justification to spend that money and

599
00:24:17,390 --> 00:24:16,260
clear it or is that still a mystery well

600
00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:17,400
it's owned by the Bureau of Land

601
00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:19,080
Management nobody there is taking

602
00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:21,960
questions so okay you know they're

603
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:23,700
they're

604
00:24:29,330 --> 00:24:27,120
I'm sure that there has to be a reason

605
00:24:31,130 --> 00:24:29,340
um other than to burn gasoline there has

606
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:31,140
to be a reason

607
00:24:37,789 --> 00:24:32,880
um

608
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:37,799
but uh

609
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:41,700
I'm left with the assumption that uh

610
00:24:46,909 --> 00:24:44,640
E.T comes and goes from there

611
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,919
I mean what what other reason can I can

612
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:48,480
I think of

613
00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:50,880
um I think it's a landing spot

614
00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:53,280
so okay again that's just just

615
00:24:57,470 --> 00:24:55,860
assumption on my part but

616
00:25:00,110 --> 00:24:57,480
um

617
00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:00,120
we we found this place we drove up we

618
00:25:04,130 --> 00:25:01,740
thought it was perfect I mean it was a

619
00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:04,140
it's a it was a beautiful place you know

620
00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:07,080
there was about six inches of grass you

621
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:09,059
know wildflowers all over the place it

622
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:11,820
was gorgeous just a really pretty place

623
00:25:16,990 --> 00:25:14,580
and uh the view was fantastic we could

624
00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:17,000
see all the way around us 360 degrees

625
00:25:21,950 --> 00:25:19,500
and there was I mean there was other

626
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:21,960
than other than Forest there there was

627
00:25:25,370 --> 00:25:24,000
nothing I mean it's there there were no

628
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:25,380
houses

629
00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:26,580
um

630
00:25:32,450 --> 00:25:29,580
that was back in 1977 I think there are

631
00:25:35,870 --> 00:25:32,460
some uh garages that you can see in the

632
00:25:37,850 --> 00:25:35,880
distance off the Google Earth image

633
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:37,860
but I think that those I'm guessing

634
00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:40,260
those are probably the house the tractor

635
00:25:43,549 --> 00:25:41,940
and whatever they used to clear cut the

636
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:43,559
top of that

637
00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:44,640
um

638
00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:46,740
so we set up a campground we set up a

639
00:25:51,169 --> 00:25:49,620
little Campground we uh all kind of cut

640
00:25:52,669 --> 00:25:51,179
through to the chase here we did all the

641
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,679
fun stuff you do when you go camping

642
00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:54,480
because it was all new to us we'd never

643
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:57,480
done it before yeah built a nice bonfire

644
00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:00,720
we um barbecue hot dogs were sitting

645
00:26:04,610 --> 00:26:02,100
back

646
00:26:07,789 --> 00:26:04,620
um we're on these air mattresses

647
00:26:08,810 --> 00:26:07,799
and we have a campfire between us and we

648
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:08,820
have a tent

649
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,240
you know just a ten dollar cheap tent uh

650
00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:14,640
we bought for that purpose set up in

651
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:16,919
back of us

652
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:18,600
and uh

653
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,720
it's getting on to 9 00 p.m maybe a

654
00:26:24,590 --> 00:26:22,799
little later

655
00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:24,600
and we're carrying on this conversation

656
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:26,580
and just having a good time

657
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:29,279
and it was pleasant out and that it was

658
00:26:33,769 --> 00:26:32,340
a warm day in June uh but there was a

659
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:33,779
nice breeze

660
00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:37,020
and there were all the uh

661
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:39,539
things in the forest that make noise you

662
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:41,940
know crickets tree frogs

663
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:44,960
bugs I don't know but yeah you know

664
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:47,520
and they were fairly loud they were loud

665
00:26:51,470 --> 00:26:49,200
enough that we had difficulty carrying

666
00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:51,480
on a conversation across the spawn fire

667
00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:54,360
or this campfire that we had

668
00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:57,960
and uh I I'm sitting back and and we're

669
00:27:01,850 --> 00:26:59,460
just uh

670
00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:01,860
talking and I noticed that it abruptly

671
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:03,960
went quiet

672
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,720
and not only did it go quiet it went

673
00:27:10,010 --> 00:27:07,919
still

674
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:10,020
where we had enjoyed a nice breeze

675
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:12,900
beforehand uh there was there was

676
00:27:18,409 --> 00:27:15,840
nothing the breeze was stopped uh

677
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:18,419
I could see the fire I the fire was the

678
00:27:23,390 --> 00:27:20,100
only thing that made noise

679
00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:23,400
and it unnerved me because it didn't

680
00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:25,880
seem natural

681
00:27:31,370 --> 00:27:28,200
and I asked my friend of course like

682
00:27:33,710 --> 00:27:31,380
he's gonna know but I asked him anyway

683
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:33,720
it got awful quiet out here what what's

684
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:35,400
up with that Toby

685
00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:37,140
and he's like ah you know he kind of

686
00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:38,520
blows it off says don't worry about the

687
00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:40,200
bugs the bugs will come back the frogs

688
00:27:43,070 --> 00:27:41,580
will come back don't worry about it we

689
00:27:45,890 --> 00:27:43,080
made you know we've been laughing and

690
00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:45,900
cutting up and we just quieted them

691
00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:48,419
they'll be back

692
00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:49,620
um

693
00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:52,260
and uh we kind of picked up our

694
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:54,600
conversation

695
00:27:57,769 --> 00:27:56,700
and my friend had his head toward toward

696
00:28:00,830 --> 00:27:57,779
the west

697
00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:00,840
and he's fixated on something

698
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:02,220
and I'm like hey man what are you

699
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:03,659
looking at

700
00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:05,760
and he says Terry were those lights

701
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,860
there before

702
00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:10,080
and there was nothing out there there

703
00:28:15,289 --> 00:28:11,900
were no lights no

704
00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:15,299
lights anywhere and I said what lights I

705
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:16,980
I couldn't see them because from where

706
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,020
he was sitting his torso was in the way

707
00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:20,880
of what he was looking at so I had to

708
00:28:25,730 --> 00:28:23,580
stand up and take a step back

709
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:25,740
and on the horizon on the western

710
00:28:32,029 --> 00:28:28,559
Horizon just above the horizon

711
00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:32,039
there were these three Bright Stars

712
00:28:35,870 --> 00:28:33,960
they were all the same brightness same

713
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:35,880
Luminosity

714
00:28:41,930 --> 00:28:39,600
um and they formed a little triangle

715
00:28:45,649 --> 00:28:41,940
and they were too high off the Horizon

716
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:45,659
to have been lights from a distant

717
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:50,159
train or uh you know a parking uh a car

718
00:28:59,090 --> 00:28:56,690
and I said no I don't I don't remember

719
00:29:01,010 --> 00:28:59,100
those lights there at all and we're

720
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,020
watching them and while we watch them

721
00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:03,600
they rotated they rotated like they

722
00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:05,940
turned like they were on an axis and did

723
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,460
about 120 degree turn

724
00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:09,840
uh

725
00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:11,940
and if you look at the base of the

726
00:29:17,450 --> 00:29:14,520
triangle the base of the triangle lined

727
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:17,460
up uh parallel with the Horizon so there

728
00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:20,460
was an apex pointing up

729
00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:22,980
and uh

730
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:25,799
it was strange because

731
00:29:30,529 --> 00:29:28,140
our emotions and our reactions were

732
00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:30,539
muted they weren't they weren't

733
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:32,940
we should have been we should have been

734
00:29:37,010 --> 00:29:34,860
freaked out we should have been

735
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:37,020
asking each other questions like human

736
00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:39,120
beings would do hey what are you seeing

737
00:29:43,850 --> 00:29:41,340
and validate what I'm looking at you

738
00:29:46,730 --> 00:29:43,860
seeing what I'm seeing you know what is

739
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:46,740
this thing but there was none of that

740
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:50,640
and the things started to go while we're

741
00:29:55,010 --> 00:29:52,860
watching it after it realigned itself

742
00:29:56,450 --> 00:29:55,020
and pointed up it started to travel

743
00:29:58,850 --> 00:29:56,460
upward

744
00:30:03,049 --> 00:29:58,860
and as soon as that happened

745
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:03,059
I felt a wave of calm wash over me

746
00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:05,760
um almost like sedation

747
00:30:10,430 --> 00:30:07,980
and all that

748
00:30:13,370 --> 00:30:10,440
all that feeling of nervousness that

749
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:13,380
anxiety that I experienced earlier was

750
00:30:18,289 --> 00:30:14,820
gone

751
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:18,299
and it was an odd experience I've not

752
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:20,880
experienced anything like it since it

753
00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:23,039
was a

754
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:26,100
Sensation that I was more of an observer

755
00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:29,940
I felt detached from it somehow

756
00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:32,460
rather than a participant in it

757
00:30:36,769 --> 00:30:35,100
I know yeah but that's the best no no I

758
00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:36,779
can explain it that's that's exactly

759
00:30:41,090 --> 00:30:38,520
what I was going to ask you do you feel

760
00:30:44,269 --> 00:30:41,100
the triangle at this point was aware of

761
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:44,279
you and your friend or again was it just

762
00:30:47,870 --> 00:30:46,020
that you were observing and it was

763
00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:47,880
something that was happening elsewhere

764
00:30:52,909 --> 00:30:50,520
and you weren't anything to do with it

765
00:30:56,570 --> 00:30:52,919
I was observing and I felt like I wasn't

766
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:56,580
a participant an active participant

767
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:00,000
but I absolutely felt like

768
00:31:08,289 --> 00:31:06,169
being there was like we were keeping an

769
00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:08,299
appointment

770
00:31:12,769 --> 00:31:11,340
and what was playing out in front of us

771
00:31:15,169 --> 00:31:12,779
uh

772
00:31:18,289 --> 00:31:15,179
when I say I wasn't a participant I had

773
00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:18,299
no I mean that I had no uh

774
00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:20,340
control over anything

775
00:31:24,830 --> 00:31:22,860
I was just there along for the ride

776
00:31:27,889 --> 00:31:24,840
and

777
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:27,899
just just to watch this thing play out

778
00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:30,899
wrong place at the right time

779
00:31:36,590 --> 00:31:33,840
I'm sorry was it the wrong place but the

780
00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:36,600
right time yeah pretty much

781
00:31:42,350 --> 00:31:38,220
pretty much

782
00:31:44,750 --> 00:31:42,360
yeah you know I I

783
00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:44,760
again I think it speaks to the level of

784
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:46,740
influence that these things can have

785
00:31:54,049 --> 00:31:50,399
over us because uh our emotions were so

786
00:31:57,409 --> 00:31:54,059
inappropriate to what was going on

787
00:31:59,510 --> 00:31:57,419
and we watched these three stars climb

788
00:32:01,789 --> 00:31:59,520
into the sky

789
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,799
and uh

790
00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:04,080
they reached what I would call a ceiling

791
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:05,700
and I had no

792
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,919
no point of reference it was pitch dark

793
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:09,600
so I have no point of reference how high

794
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:10,799
that was

795
00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:12,360
but uh

796
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:14,580
they were high in the sky I can say that

797
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,220
because the points were

798
00:32:20,269 --> 00:32:18,960
three the three stars were close

799
00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:20,279
together

800
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:23,100
and it stopped moving

801
00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:26,220
and once it reached this ceiling it

802
00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:31,140
reoriented itself and moved like this

803
00:32:36,649 --> 00:32:34,020
so that instead of going up the triangle

804
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,659
was now pointed in our Direction because

805
00:32:41,870 --> 00:32:38,880
instead of seeing a triangle we now saw

806
00:32:44,090 --> 00:32:41,880
a line of three lights you know the

807
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:44,100
center light and the two two lights on

808
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:47,640
either end so it was pointed directly in

809
00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:50,580
our Direction it was

810
00:32:58,610 --> 00:32:55,320
it was coming toward us and it did

811
00:33:02,289 --> 00:32:58,620
it wasn't fast it did a slow like a

812
00:33:05,930 --> 00:33:02,299
Glide plane like um just a slow descent

813
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:05,940
but steadily in our Direction

814
00:33:11,450 --> 00:33:07,440
and it must have been high because this

815
00:33:15,649 --> 00:33:11,460
took some some minutes for it to happen

816
00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:15,659
it did a somersault thing where the tip

817
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:19,140
the apex of the triangle dipped down and

818
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:21,360
the thing flipped completely over and

819
00:33:25,370 --> 00:33:23,279
then reoriented itself and it did that

820
00:33:27,529 --> 00:33:25,380
at least twice

821
00:33:28,970 --> 00:33:27,539
and I had the feeling that that was done

822
00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:28,980
for our benefit

823
00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:31,380
that that was this thing's way of

824
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:34,200
letting us know that

825
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:36,360
it's under control

826
00:33:42,409 --> 00:33:38,640
you know it's like somebody's driving

827
00:33:47,810 --> 00:33:42,419
this thing and uh uh I I just had a

828
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,049
and it it came toward us and as it got

829
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:53,519
lower it got probably was that I'm

830
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,240
guessing five thousand feet

831
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,760
and there were points on the tip of each

832
00:34:04,610 --> 00:34:01,679
of the triangle with white lights and

833
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:04,620
those dimmed somewhat

834
00:34:09,409 --> 00:34:07,200
and it came in it it stopped directly

835
00:34:11,690 --> 00:34:09,419
over our campsite

836
00:34:13,849 --> 00:34:11,700
uh actually we weren't it we weren't

837
00:34:16,070 --> 00:34:13,859
directly underneath it we had camped

838
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:16,080
kind of off to the side

839
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:18,000
so that this thing wasn't exactly

840
00:34:23,089 --> 00:34:20,700
underneath us which I was grateful for

841
00:34:26,349 --> 00:34:23,099
and also by being off to the side we

842
00:34:30,169 --> 00:34:26,359
could kind of see the side of the thing

843
00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:30,179
and it was big it was enormous uh it was

844
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:32,520
like a

845
00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:37,760
a medical building or a large shopping

846
00:34:43,369 --> 00:34:40,379
uh Center or something

847
00:34:47,149 --> 00:34:43,379
uh but it was on the order of that

848
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:47,159
magnitude size wise it was big

849
00:34:52,970 --> 00:34:49,379
heard no noise

850
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:52,980
felt no anxiety whatsoever

851
00:34:55,609 --> 00:34:53,700
um

852
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:55,619
and we really had no conversation about

853
00:34:58,910 --> 00:34:56,460
it

854
00:35:02,630 --> 00:34:58,920
we were just there

855
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:02,640
and shortly after it came to a stop

856
00:35:08,329 --> 00:35:04,800
directly from underneath and in the

857
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:08,339
center of the triangle there came a

858
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:10,619
a laser type of light

859
00:35:16,849 --> 00:35:13,740
and it was a a white light

860
00:35:20,329 --> 00:35:16,859
that had a milky white quality to it

861
00:35:23,450 --> 00:35:20,339
and it was about six inches in diameter

862
00:35:25,310 --> 00:35:23,460
and it just like someone hit a switch

863
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:25,320
clicked on

864
00:35:30,170 --> 00:35:27,660
and landed directly in the center of our

865
00:35:36,829 --> 00:35:34,849
and uh we both looked at it and it was

866
00:35:38,329 --> 00:35:36,839
odd I mean there was no fog it was a

867
00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:38,339
clear night

868
00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:41,820
but this light beam had that quality of

869
00:35:48,109 --> 00:35:44,940
a like a high powered Searchlight or

870
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:48,119
a nautical navigational light so it's

871
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:50,700
like the cuts through fog you can see a

872
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,660
visible it had that quality to it

873
00:35:58,609 --> 00:35:56,640
and we both looked at it and I don't

874
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:58,619
think we said a word

875
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:00,960
and we could visually follow it up to

876
00:36:05,930 --> 00:36:04,260
the center underneath of this triangle

877
00:36:09,170 --> 00:36:05,940
and uh

878
00:36:11,810 --> 00:36:09,180
then that just boom shut off

879
00:36:13,010 --> 00:36:11,820
and the second that it shut off

880
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:13,020
um

881
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:15,960
it shot from the same spot a laser beam

882
00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:18,780
in our Direction now laser beams were

883
00:36:22,910 --> 00:36:21,300
brand new in 1977 I'd seen them on

884
00:36:24,290 --> 00:36:22,920
television but I'd never seen one in

885
00:36:26,329 --> 00:36:24,300
real life before

886
00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:26,339
yeah and this one was a

887
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:30,740
about the diameter of a of a lead pencil

888
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:33,359
and it was um

889
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:36,720
red reddish purple in color

890
00:36:42,650 --> 00:36:39,839
and what it would do is it would land

891
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:42,660
in our campsite on something

892
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:44,940
and stay there for literally a

893
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:46,680
millisecond

894
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:49,500
and then reappear somewhere else

895
00:36:54,890 --> 00:36:52,680
so it like it struck my car it struck

896
00:36:58,010 --> 00:36:54,900
our tent it struck me at least three

897
00:37:00,829 --> 00:36:58,020
times in my chest never felt a thing

898
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:00,839
it hit my friend our campfire hid his

899
00:37:05,329 --> 00:37:03,420
backpack all the things that we bought

900
00:37:08,210 --> 00:37:05,339
brought with us

901
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:08,220
that really didn't belong up there until

902
00:37:14,329 --> 00:37:11,400
we brought them uh it focused on those

903
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:16,370
had the idea this thing's checking us

904
00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:17,280
out

905
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:19,260
and that's all I could that's all I

906
00:37:22,970 --> 00:37:21,060
could think of it was doing because it

907
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:22,980
was just and it was I that gave the

908
00:37:26,210 --> 00:37:24,660
solution that it was dancing all over

909
00:37:28,430 --> 00:37:26,220
the campsite

910
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,440
yeah my friend it struck him several

911
00:37:32,990 --> 00:37:30,720
times he would later admit he didn't he

912
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:33,000
never felt a thing either

913
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,680
so

914
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:37,440
that that shut off after

915
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:40,320
you know time is difficult to estimate

916
00:37:45,770 --> 00:37:42,960
it seemed like about 90 seconds could

917
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:45,780
have been 30 to could have been uh 120

918
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:48,720
but in that range is how long this this

919
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:50,880
event lasted

920
00:37:55,970 --> 00:37:53,820
and uh

921
00:37:57,950 --> 00:37:55,980
as soon as the as soon as that light

922
00:38:00,290 --> 00:37:57,960
shut off

923
00:38:02,329 --> 00:38:00,300
um no

924
00:38:04,609 --> 00:38:02,339
remember I said earlier when they when

925
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:04,619
we first saw this thing I felt that wave

926
00:38:10,970 --> 00:38:08,220
of sedation of calm wash over me

927
00:38:17,089 --> 00:38:13,849
I felt that sedation

928
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,099
transitioned to sleepy

929
00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:19,440
and because there's a distinct

930
00:38:24,109 --> 00:38:22,140
difference between the two

931
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:24,119
and I mean I was you know in good shape

932
00:38:27,530 --> 00:38:25,980
22 years old I had no reason to be

933
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:27,540
sleepy I was used to working a night

934
00:38:33,050 --> 00:38:30,300
shift it's no big deal I should not have

935
00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:33,060
been sleepy

936
00:38:36,829 --> 00:38:34,980
um but all I wanted to do

937
00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:36,839
was going to tent lay down and go to

938
00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:40,380
sleep that's all I wanted to do

939
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:44,520
and my friend had the same idea

940
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:49,740
and he stood up and he said shows over

941
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:52,260
and that's that's I think the only two

942
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:54,770
words that we exchanged

943
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:55,260
[Music]

944
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,920
um

945
00:38:59,810 --> 00:38:57,839
during this encounter

946
00:39:01,490 --> 00:38:59,820
he picked up his air mattress and he

947
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:01,500
went over to the tent and threw it in

948
00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:03,599
and climbed in on top of it and found

949
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:06,420
out and just was out like that

950
00:39:10,190 --> 00:39:08,400
and then as soon as he was situated a

951
00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:10,200
small test soon as he was situated I

952
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:11,940
threw my air mattress in on the left

953
00:39:19,069 --> 00:39:16,320
side I climbed in and uh fell on top of

954
00:39:21,410 --> 00:39:19,079
the mattress and my last thought before

955
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:21,420
I passed out was

956
00:39:26,210 --> 00:39:24,180
that Toby had been wrong because the The

957
00:39:31,450 --> 00:39:26,220
Crickets the tree frogs never did return

958
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:31,460
it was still dead quiet and I was out

959
00:39:36,589 --> 00:39:34,320
I didn't bother to take off my shirt my

960
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:36,599
boots anything I just

961
00:39:42,349 --> 00:39:39,119
fell on top of their American air

962
00:39:45,050 --> 00:39:42,359
mattress and I was out

963
00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:45,060
some time passed I had no recollection

964
00:39:50,270 --> 00:39:48,660
of having any dreams uh it just almost

965
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:50,280
like being uh

966
00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:52,320
under medical Anesthesia where you know

967
00:39:56,030 --> 00:39:53,820
you just close your eyes you wake up

968
00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:56,040
there's nothing in between

969
00:40:01,609 --> 00:39:58,680
um and I woke up to these yellow lights

970
00:40:04,370 --> 00:40:01,619
yellow flashing lights coming through

971
00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:04,380
the canvas of the tent

972
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:07,140
um in front of me into my left apartment

973
00:40:13,010 --> 00:40:10,800
to my right and these flashes of light

974
00:40:15,470 --> 00:40:13,020
are at odd intervals and they're

975
00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:15,480
incredibly bright I mean Bright Like An

976
00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:20,400
Old School flash bulb just brilliant uh

977
00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:23,160
and in that fraction of a second it

978
00:40:28,310 --> 00:40:24,660
would light up the inside of that temp

979
00:40:30,650 --> 00:40:28,320
like like crazy like daytime

980
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,660
and I wake up and I don't I don't have

981
00:40:34,910 --> 00:40:32,400
my wits about me

982
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,920
and I'm thinking you know what is this

983
00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:36,240
what

984
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:37,980
and then I'm trying to think of some

985
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,380
rational explanation and what I came up

986
00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:42,000
with that these must be the overhead

987
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:44,040
flashing lights of a park ranger's truck

988
00:40:47,450 --> 00:40:46,079
there to kick us out

989
00:40:49,550 --> 00:40:47,460
that was the only thing I could think of

990
00:40:52,849 --> 00:40:49,560
that made sense

991
00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:52,859
and I sat up and uh I wasn't worried

992
00:40:56,089 --> 00:40:54,660
about the park rangers I you know I'd

993
00:40:58,970 --> 00:40:56,099
throw us out of the park I didn't expect

994
00:41:01,970 --> 00:40:58,980
to be you know any consequence other

995
00:41:04,670 --> 00:41:01,980
than that and uh

996
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:04,680
I sat up and I noticed that my

997
00:41:08,329 --> 00:41:07,200
I wore my combat boots blue jeans and a

998
00:41:10,970 --> 00:41:08,339
t-shirt

999
00:41:13,069 --> 00:41:10,980
and my boots had been unlaced almost all

1000
00:41:15,170 --> 00:41:13,079
the way down

1001
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,180
and that

1002
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:17,520
I guess annoyed is right that annoyed me

1003
00:41:22,130 --> 00:41:20,880
because I knew I I didn't put them on

1004
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:22,140
like that

1005
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,180
I mean I I would have either I would

1006
00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:26,160
have either left them laced up or I'd

1007
00:41:30,589 --> 00:41:27,660
have taken them off but I wouldn't have

1008
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:30,599
left my boots untied I mean it's a trip

1009
00:41:33,829 --> 00:41:32,400
Hazard it doesn't make sense I would not

1010
00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:33,839
have done that

1011
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:36,420
and uh

1012
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,520
I think I gave that my immediate

1013
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,280
attention I pulled off my boot

1014
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:44,160
um and my socks were on Sideways

1015
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:46,500
and that really confused me and it

1016
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,000
didn't hit me yet that we'd been

1017
00:41:52,609 --> 00:41:50,400
undressed and redressed is the reason

1018
00:41:53,329 --> 00:41:52,619
for this yeah

1019
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:53,339
um

1020
00:41:58,609 --> 00:41:55,680
but I I was annoyed and I put them on

1021
00:42:01,790 --> 00:41:58,619
properly and I laced my boots up

1022
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:01,800
um and the lights are still flashing

1023
00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:05,040
and I in in one of these flashes of

1024
00:42:11,210 --> 00:42:07,619
light I can see my friend Toby is on his

1025
00:42:14,450 --> 00:42:11,220
knees and he is peeking out through a

1026
00:42:16,609 --> 00:42:14,460
flap on his side of the tent

1027
00:42:18,589 --> 00:42:16,619
and this all happened pretty quick and I

1028
00:42:20,089 --> 00:42:18,599
I say Toby man what are you looking at

1029
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,099
what's out there is IT Park Rangers

1030
00:42:25,310 --> 00:42:21,839
what's out there

1031
00:42:30,890 --> 00:42:27,890
and in one of these flashes of light

1032
00:42:33,650 --> 00:42:30,900
I could see tracks of tears down the

1033
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:33,660
right side of his face

1034
00:42:38,270 --> 00:42:35,760
and that scared me that was really the

1035
00:42:41,930 --> 00:42:38,280
first fear that I felt the first real

1036
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:41,940
fear that I felt in this whole encounter

1037
00:42:46,609 --> 00:42:43,200
because I couldn't imagine what would

1038
00:42:50,210 --> 00:42:46,619
make this guy cry and it made no sense

1039
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:50,220
and uh I asked him again Toby what's out

1040
00:42:53,810 --> 00:42:52,200
there and he doesn't he doesn't give me

1041
00:42:56,329 --> 00:42:53,820
a coherent answer

1042
00:42:58,970 --> 00:42:56,339
and I got to my knees and I looked out

1043
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,980
the flap on my side of the tent and this

1044
00:43:03,950 --> 00:43:01,440
thing that had been

1045
00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:03,960
somewhere around 3 000 feet I'm guessing

1046
00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:05,640
over our heads

1047
00:43:08,569 --> 00:43:06,660
um

1048
00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:08,579
when we went to bed

1049
00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:11,520
had descended and it was now just 30

1050
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:14,220
feet over the floor of this Meadow

1051
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:18,000
so it was I say I was grateful that we

1052
00:43:21,290 --> 00:43:19,440
had camped off to the side because

1053
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,300
otherwise they'd been felt like right on

1054
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:23,280
top of us and that was the reason these

1055
00:43:28,730 --> 00:43:25,920
lights were so bright was we were near

1056
00:43:32,930 --> 00:43:28,740
one of those points and the flashing

1057
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:32,940
light was in our Direction and uh

1058
00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:35,040
it was pitch dark except for when these

1059
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:36,839
when these lights would flash [\h__\h] out

1060
00:43:40,490 --> 00:43:38,460
intervals

1061
00:43:42,829 --> 00:43:40,500
and um

1062
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,839
I'm looking and in one of these flashes

1063
00:43:46,609 --> 00:43:44,880
of light I can see what I first took to

1064
00:43:49,430 --> 00:43:46,619
be children

1065
00:43:51,710 --> 00:43:49,440
somewhere between a dozen maybe 15 I

1066
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:51,720
didn't count them

1067
00:43:56,030 --> 00:43:54,960
but children three foot tall maybe a tad

1068
00:43:58,670 --> 00:43:56,040
less

1069
00:44:02,030 --> 00:43:58,680
walking around this Meadow and they're

1070
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:02,040
all paired up in twos and threes

1071
00:44:07,849 --> 00:44:05,700
and they're walking around like uh

1072
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,859
like tourist or something they're just

1073
00:44:11,329 --> 00:44:09,359
walking around checking things out

1074
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:11,339
looking around

1075
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:12,000
um

1076
00:44:16,910 --> 00:44:14,460
they're walking leisurely

1077
00:44:19,609 --> 00:44:16,920
they had an odd gate they walked with a

1078
00:44:21,410 --> 00:44:19,619
bit of a limp their gate wasn't

1079
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:21,420
the way you or I

1080
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:24,180
would walk something about their gate

1081
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,000
was off

1082
00:44:31,010 --> 00:44:29,040
and I'm confused and I'm like Toby man

1083
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:31,020
what what the hell what are these kids

1084
00:44:35,809 --> 00:44:32,160
doing out here in the middle of the

1085
00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:35,819
night you know in the middle of nowhere

1086
00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:38,280
and he said Terry man look at him those

1087
00:44:42,050 --> 00:44:39,900
ain't little kids look at them they're

1088
00:44:45,530 --> 00:44:42,060
not human beings

1089
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:45,540
and when he said that I looked again

1090
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:47,760
and I could see that their torsos their

1091
00:44:52,190 --> 00:44:49,440
limbs were disproportionate to their

1092
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:52,200
body their heads were larger than they

1093
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:55,440
should have been and they were all uh

1094
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:57,119
they were all the same they were all

1095
00:45:02,450 --> 00:44:58,800
uniform

1096
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:02,460
and I have a theory about you know I and

1097
00:45:06,290 --> 00:45:03,839
there may be a hundred different

1098
00:45:08,329 --> 00:45:06,300
varieties of Grays I mean

1099
00:45:10,250 --> 00:45:08,339
because I I say this and I have people

1100
00:45:12,410 --> 00:45:10,260
email me and said no that's not right

1101
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:12,420
grades are this or Grazer that but I can

1102
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:14,160
only tell you what I saw

1103
00:45:19,550 --> 00:45:16,200
and what I saw gave me the impression

1104
00:45:22,250 --> 00:45:19,560
that these things were manufactured

1105
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:22,260
maybe intuitively somehow I knew that

1106
00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:23,760
these weren't living they weren't

1107
00:45:29,630 --> 00:45:25,800
sentient beings in the way that you and

1108
00:45:32,270 --> 00:45:29,640
I are you know conscious self-aware uh

1109
00:45:34,089 --> 00:45:32,280
you know you mentioned Calvin Parker uh

1110
00:45:37,490 --> 00:45:34,099
who's a friend and

1111
00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:37,500
Calvin and I had this uh conversation

1112
00:45:42,410 --> 00:45:41,160
and he describes to them as quote little

1113
00:45:44,990 --> 00:45:42,420
robots

1114
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:45,000
yeah and I had I had that same I had

1115
00:45:49,010 --> 00:45:47,520
that same feeling that they felt like

1116
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:49,020
something that was manufactured they

1117
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:50,460
didn't seem real

1118
00:45:55,069 --> 00:45:52,560
or not they were they were definitely

1119
00:45:56,569 --> 00:45:55,079
real but they weren't sentient living

1120
00:45:58,370 --> 00:45:56,579
so

1121
00:45:59,870 --> 00:45:58,380
we're watching them and we're terrified

1122
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:59,880
we're scared to death that we're gonna

1123
00:46:03,950 --> 00:46:01,920
sneeze or cough or make some noise and

1124
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:03,960
draw their attention and of course they

1125
00:46:09,170 --> 00:46:06,960
were long done with us so uh whatever

1126
00:46:10,670 --> 00:46:09,180
they were doing and while we were

1127
00:46:12,410 --> 00:46:10,680
watching from underneath this thing

1128
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:12,420
there came a column of light that came

1129
00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:16,319
on boom just like all of a sudden

1130
00:46:21,530 --> 00:46:18,420
and it was about 30 feet in diameter

1131
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:21,540
because it was about the same diameter

1132
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:24,000
as this thing was tall off the floor of

1133
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:25,200
the meadow

1134
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:27,839
so I'm guessing 30 feet and it was a

1135
00:46:32,450 --> 00:46:30,000
column of white light and it had that

1136
00:46:33,530 --> 00:46:32,460
milky white quality to it that that bean

1137
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:33,540
had

1138
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:35,640
that looked like a Searchlight cutting

1139
00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:37,140
through fog

1140
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,200
and the second this thing turned on

1141
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:42,000
all of these little guys turned their

1142
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:43,680
attention toward it

1143
00:46:47,809 --> 00:46:46,440
and they start walking toward it and

1144
00:46:50,089 --> 00:46:47,819
they're they're not rushed they're not

1145
00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:50,099
in a hurry they're taking their time but

1146
00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:51,599
they're making their way toward this

1147
00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:53,400
light

1148
00:46:57,650 --> 00:46:55,980
and they're kind of farming up a queue

1149
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:57,660
and

1150
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:00,480
the first two step into the light

1151
00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:02,880
and over the course of about 30 seconds

1152
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,640
maybe a little less they would pixelate

1153
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:07,680
out

1154
00:47:11,809 --> 00:47:08,400
um

1155
00:47:13,870 --> 00:47:11,819
there was the original Star Trek series

1156
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:13,880
which I'm sure aired

1157
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:18,540
aired in in in Britain oh yeah back in

1158
00:47:23,630 --> 00:47:21,839
the 60s and there was a um thing they

1159
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:23,640
called the transponder transporter so

1160
00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:25,380
I'm not a Sci-Fi fan at all the

1161
00:47:30,770 --> 00:47:28,440
transport or yeah that's it and they

1162
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:30,780
would stand on this little platform and

1163
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:33,000
they would just pixelate out

1164
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:36,240
and uh that's what these things did they

1165
00:47:40,670 --> 00:47:38,460
they stood they pixelated out and they

1166
00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:40,680
were gone and as soon as they vanished

1167
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:43,260
then the next two or three would step

1168
00:47:49,490 --> 00:47:46,440
into the light and in that order they

1169
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:49,500
eventually the last couple ticks laid

1170
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:51,540
out and they're gone the second that

1171
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:54,839
they're gone that light turns off

1172
00:48:02,270 --> 00:47:59,450
um

1173
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,280
the lights on the points of the triangle

1174
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,319
changed intensity

1175
00:48:10,190 --> 00:48:06,000
uh and they went from being

1176
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:12,290
and uh

1177
00:48:17,150 --> 00:48:14,640
this thing lifted off and it didn't lift

1178
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:17,160
off like a

1179
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:22,260
balloon

1180
00:48:29,630 --> 00:48:26,640
it just kind of rose and um

1181
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:29,640
I have a hand-drawn picture of it that I

1182
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:30,900
should have sent you and did and I

1183
00:48:39,290 --> 00:48:37,730
um I have a hand-drawn picture that I

1184
00:48:40,130 --> 00:48:39,300
drew kind of contemporaneous with the

1185
00:48:43,490 --> 00:48:40,140
event

1186
00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:43,500
I I redrew for inclusion into my book

1187
00:48:47,690 --> 00:48:45,180
and that's a pretty good representation

1188
00:48:49,609 --> 00:48:47,700
of what we saw

1189
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:49,619
that link for the website will be in the

1190
00:48:52,670 --> 00:48:51,119
description to the podcast so if

1191
00:48:54,530 --> 00:48:52,680
anyone's listening they can click on

1192
00:48:56,510 --> 00:48:54,540
that and or head to terrylovelist.com

1193
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:56,520
and they'll be able to see that which I

1194
00:48:59,569 --> 00:48:57,839
suggest they do

1195
00:49:01,609 --> 00:48:59,579
sure

1196
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:01,619
so I want to ask you teddy just just

1197
00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:04,079
before you carry on yes that's a good

1198
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:05,640
place just to ask you a quick question I

1199
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:06,960
don't want to break up the story too

1200
00:49:11,690 --> 00:49:08,640
much because it's amazing to listen to

1201
00:49:14,930 --> 00:49:11,700
you mentioned the the Grays these small

1202
00:49:17,450 --> 00:49:14,940
robot type you know AI potentially we

1203
00:49:20,329 --> 00:49:17,460
hear about third generation AI are they

1204
00:49:22,190 --> 00:49:20,339
really intelligent clones or robots and

1205
00:49:24,349 --> 00:49:22,200
you mentioned that scene and it makes me

1206
00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:24,359
think of Close Encounters the Third Kind

1207
00:49:28,970 --> 00:49:27,420
when the little gray aliens come out the

1208
00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:28,980
craft and they're all standing in the

1209
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:30,900
light and there's again they were played

1210
00:49:34,370 --> 00:49:32,460
by little children in the movie and

1211
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:34,380
they're in that kind of mass at Sea of

1212
00:49:40,849 --> 00:49:37,440
sea of beings do you have any thoughts

1213
00:49:43,730 --> 00:49:40,859
then or over time as to

1214
00:49:46,190 --> 00:49:43,740
the source of these beings if they're

1215
00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:46,200
being created or manufactured

1216
00:49:50,089 --> 00:49:48,300
have you ever thought about why or by

1217
00:49:52,730 --> 00:49:50,099
who

1218
00:49:56,270 --> 00:49:52,740
I have and you know I I I'm glad you

1219
00:49:58,849 --> 00:49:56,280
asked that question because uh I uh I

1220
00:50:01,250 --> 00:49:58,859
don't watch Sci-Fi movies I don't watch

1221
00:50:03,230 --> 00:50:01,260
outer space movies

1222
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:03,240
um very very rarely

1223
00:50:07,490 --> 00:50:06,180
and uh encouragement from my wife and my

1224
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,500
kids are like come on you got to see

1225
00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:09,359
this it's a great movie you'll love it

1226
00:50:15,230 --> 00:50:11,640
uh

1227
00:50:17,690 --> 00:50:15,240
and I did enjoy it until that scene

1228
00:50:19,849 --> 00:50:17,700
and that scene where if I recall there's

1229
00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:19,859
a ramp that comes down there's a thick

1230
00:50:27,710 --> 00:50:23,280
fog or mist and the little gray guy step

1231
00:50:28,609 --> 00:50:27,720
out of it yep and um I had a panic

1232
00:50:33,370 --> 00:50:28,619
attack

1233
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:33,380
I I flipped out and and left the theater

1234
00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:36,720
and uh waited outside for my family and

1235
00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:38,819
I said I

1236
00:50:44,089 --> 00:50:40,920
I I can't go back there but not right

1237
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:44,099
now I I just needed to get away from

1238
00:50:48,829 --> 00:50:45,599
that

1239
00:50:50,089 --> 00:50:48,839
um I have some PTSD like symptoms and

1240
00:50:52,010 --> 00:50:50,099
I'll answer the rest of your question

1241
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,020
but I want to interject with this if I

1242
00:50:56,990 --> 00:50:54,960
could sure yeah you know I had that

1243
00:50:58,730 --> 00:50:57,000
that uh panic attack and anyone who's

1244
00:51:01,309 --> 00:50:58,740
ever had a genuine panic attack knows

1245
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,319
how unpleasant that really is

1246
00:51:07,069 --> 00:51:03,359
and I was in a shopping mall with my

1247
00:51:08,930 --> 00:51:07,079
wife in 1987 around Christmas time and I

1248
00:51:11,690 --> 00:51:08,940
walked around a corner and there was a

1249
00:51:14,569 --> 00:51:11,700
store that was set up with a long table

1250
00:51:17,089 --> 00:51:14,579
and it had these uh female mannequins

1251
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:17,099
they were just from the waist up

1252
00:51:22,730 --> 00:51:20,240
and their arms they weren't dressed

1253
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:22,740
they had heads but there was no hair

1254
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:25,440
there were no facial facial features and

1255
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,079
just arms extended

1256
00:51:31,549 --> 00:51:30,000
um and I

1257
00:51:33,770 --> 00:51:31,559
walking through the mall turned around

1258
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,780
and I I looked at this

1259
00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:36,000
and something about there were four

1260
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:38,280
mannequins set up on that table these

1261
00:51:43,250 --> 00:51:41,400
mannequins I flipped out I absolutely

1262
00:51:44,210 --> 00:51:43,260
flipped out and

1263
00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:44,220
um

1264
00:51:48,109 --> 00:51:46,380
had nightmares about mannequins for

1265
00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:48,119
weeks

1266
00:51:52,010 --> 00:51:50,220
you know also and lastly I'll get back

1267
00:51:52,730 --> 00:51:52,020
to answering your question

1268
00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:52,740
um

1269
00:51:57,950 --> 00:51:55,800
I can't cut across an open field

1270
00:51:59,870 --> 00:51:57,960
now I'll walk a mile and a half to get

1271
00:52:03,829 --> 00:51:59,880
around it but I can't walk out in Open

1272
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:04,730
um

1273
00:52:09,470 --> 00:52:06,960
then I have some other pts like symptoms

1274
00:52:11,690 --> 00:52:09,480
that from people that I've talked to I'm

1275
00:52:13,790 --> 00:52:11,700
not alone they they this is this is

1276
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,800
pretty common stuff

1277
00:52:17,390 --> 00:52:15,599
and your question was did I have a

1278
00:52:19,250 --> 00:52:17,400
feeling uh

1279
00:52:20,450 --> 00:52:19,260
or an intuition about where these things

1280
00:52:22,730 --> 00:52:20,460
come from

1281
00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:22,740
yeah either at the time which may be

1282
00:52:28,130 --> 00:52:24,900
difficult or or since then you know a

1283
00:52:31,130 --> 00:52:30,049
yeah I had that sense that they were

1284
00:52:32,809 --> 00:52:31,140
meant like I said that they were

1285
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,819
manufactured and that they were

1286
00:52:37,130 --> 00:52:35,040
manufactured by whatever it is that that

1287
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,140
manufactured

1288
00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:38,880
this craft

1289
00:52:43,549 --> 00:52:41,940
because this thing that I'm looking at

1290
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,559
um

1291
00:52:47,329 --> 00:52:45,599
it was a nuts and bolts put together

1292
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,339
kind of thing

1293
00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:49,440
and I've been through this in my mind

1294
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,540
many times over over 45 years and

1295
00:52:58,190 --> 00:52:56,160
this thing had to be put together in a

1296
00:53:00,770 --> 00:52:58,200
factory by beings

1297
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:00,780
that you know went to work in some

1298
00:53:06,049 --> 00:53:03,540
Factory that probably had job this was

1299
00:53:08,210 --> 00:53:06,059
their job and got a paycheck and went

1300
00:53:10,250 --> 00:53:08,220
home at the end of the day had their own

1301
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:10,260
families uh

1302
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:12,960
just not human and not from here because

1303
00:53:17,569 --> 00:53:14,880
whatever I saw I don't think originated

1304
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:19,670
and I saw some other things too that

1305
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:22,500
that left me with that impression

1306
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:23,520
um

1307
00:53:30,049 --> 00:53:26,880
they they weren't they weren't from here

1308
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:30,059
what else gave you that impression

1309
00:53:34,730 --> 00:53:31,680
I don't have

1310
00:53:38,569 --> 00:53:34,740
and never have had a clear linear memory

1311
00:53:41,569 --> 00:53:38,579
of what happened to us inside that ship

1312
00:53:43,490 --> 00:53:41,579
but I have flashes I had bits and pieces

1313
00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:43,500
of memory

1314
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:45,180
and uh

1315
00:53:49,069 --> 00:53:47,040
I can run through a couple of those for

1316
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:49,079
you because I say there aren't that many

1317
00:53:53,569 --> 00:53:52,440
because I don't have that many memories

1318
00:53:55,790 --> 00:53:53,579
um

1319
00:53:57,890 --> 00:53:55,800
is that relevant now do you do you

1320
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:57,900
remember that from that moment I don't

1321
00:54:01,010 --> 00:53:59,520
want to take out the story and the the

1322
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:01,020
chronological order you're telling it

1323
00:54:06,530 --> 00:54:04,680
but at the point the the object's gone

1324
00:54:08,329 --> 00:54:06,540
is did you still remember what had

1325
00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:08,339
happened at that point or did that come

1326
00:54:14,930 --> 00:54:11,940
later well you both uh immediately after

1327
00:54:16,690 --> 00:54:14,940
the event I recalled some things there

1328
00:54:20,450 --> 00:54:16,700
were some things that were a little more

1329
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:20,460
uh frightening that that came back in

1330
00:54:25,069 --> 00:54:22,800
the form and I think they're genuine uh

1331
00:54:27,530 --> 00:54:25,079
memories I don't think these are are you

1332
00:54:29,569 --> 00:54:27,540
know they're not uh they're not Dreams

1333
00:54:33,290 --> 00:54:29,579
they're not they're they're genuine

1334
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:33,300
memories uh so a little bit of both uh I

1335
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:34,319
remember

1336
00:54:41,630 --> 00:54:39,359
I was conscious of being inside this

1337
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:41,640
thing and the Curious thing is I don't

1338
00:54:47,690 --> 00:54:45,599
know if they took us someplace else

1339
00:54:49,130 --> 00:54:47,700
or if we were just inside the ship and

1340
00:54:51,530 --> 00:54:49,140
the reason I questioned that is because

1341
00:54:53,809 --> 00:54:51,540
the interior of the ship

1342
00:54:55,490 --> 00:54:53,819
was way bigger

1343
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:55,500
than the thing we were looking at the

1344
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:58,079
thing we were looking at was big

1345
00:55:02,210 --> 00:55:00,480
um but like if if

1346
00:55:04,670 --> 00:55:02,220
I'm comparing this thing to a medical

1347
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:04,680
building from the outside while we were

1348
00:55:08,750 --> 00:55:06,900
inside it if that's where we were I

1349
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:08,760
don't know

1350
00:55:15,049 --> 00:55:09,599
um

1351
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:15,059
kind of sure

1352
00:55:19,849 --> 00:55:16,319
so

1353
00:55:22,130 --> 00:55:19,859
it was incredibly bright inside it was

1354
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:22,140
just lit up like crazy

1355
00:55:26,809 --> 00:55:24,960
and both of us had Burns to the cornea

1356
00:55:29,089 --> 00:55:26,819
of our eyes they're called flashbirds

1357
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,099
it's like it's like a welder would get

1358
00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:31,440
if they didn't wear that that mask with

1359
00:55:37,730 --> 00:55:34,200
the tinted glass to protect their eyes

1360
00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:37,740
uh so this place was insanely lit

1361
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:41,160
I opened my eyes they had undressed us I

1362
00:55:44,569 --> 00:55:43,200
had my boots and my clothing in my hands

1363
00:55:46,970 --> 00:55:44,579
like this

1364
00:55:49,010 --> 00:55:46,980
and I could sense that Toby was next to

1365
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:49,020
me to my left

1366
00:55:55,490 --> 00:55:52,559
and there were I'm doing the only thing

1367
00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:55,500
I can move is my eyeballs

1368
00:56:01,370 --> 00:55:58,740
I can roll my eyes and I can look

1369
00:56:03,950 --> 00:56:01,380
but I can't see what's behind me I can't

1370
00:56:08,030 --> 00:56:03,960
turn my head to the left or to the right

1371
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,040
so that's that's my field of vision it's

1372
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:10,640
just what I can see by moving my eyes

1373
00:56:14,930 --> 00:56:14,160
and I was paralyzed otherwise

1374
00:56:16,910 --> 00:56:14,940
um

1375
00:56:18,410 --> 00:56:16,920
and you know what we talked about Calvin

1376
00:56:20,569 --> 00:56:18,420
Parker I think Calvin had the same

1377
00:56:23,210 --> 00:56:20,579
experience where he the only thing he

1378
00:56:26,030 --> 00:56:23,220
could move was his eyes

1379
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:26,040
um and while I'm

1380
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:28,559
I remember taking in that this place was

1381
00:56:32,990 --> 00:56:31,440
huge the little gray guys were running

1382
00:56:34,609 --> 00:56:33,000
all over the place

1383
00:56:36,770 --> 00:56:34,619
and when I say running all over the

1384
00:56:39,530 --> 00:56:36,780
place I mean they were moving with um

1385
00:56:40,910 --> 00:56:39,540
intent with purpose you know they

1386
00:56:42,589 --> 00:56:40,920
weren't uh

1387
00:56:43,970 --> 00:56:42,599
there weren't any Slackers you know

1388
00:56:47,450 --> 00:56:43,980
there was nobody taking a smoke break

1389
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,460
everybody was doing something uh with a

1390
00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:49,440
purpose

1391
00:56:53,329 --> 00:56:51,540
and then

1392
00:56:56,569 --> 00:56:53,339
this was probably the most frightening

1393
00:56:58,910 --> 00:56:56,579
thing that that happened to me

1394
00:57:02,210 --> 00:56:58,920
and that was

1395
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:02,220
I was aware of

1396
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:05,400
a being about six foot tall

1397
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:08,400
you know almost twice as tall you know

1398
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,559
two meters tall

1399
00:57:13,970 --> 00:57:12,240
to my right

1400
00:57:18,109 --> 00:57:13,980
and um

1401
00:57:21,230 --> 00:57:18,119
he was dressed in a like a gray uniform

1402
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:21,240
with a v-neck I saw I didn't see any

1403
00:57:26,089 --> 00:57:23,760
Insignia of rank or name tag or anything

1404
00:57:27,650 --> 00:57:26,099
like that but this thing was like a

1405
00:57:30,770 --> 00:57:27,660
sweater

1406
00:57:32,569 --> 00:57:30,780
and uh he

1407
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:32,579
wasn't a human being

1408
00:57:38,270 --> 00:57:36,480
uh he wasn't great his complexion was a

1409
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:38,280
like a pinkish color

1410
00:57:44,510 --> 00:57:41,040
it's odd it it wasn't but it wasn't he

1411
00:57:45,710 --> 00:57:44,520
was not human he had um just two

1412
00:57:48,829 --> 00:57:45,720
nostrils

1413
00:57:50,089 --> 00:57:48,839
uh a slit for a mouth no discernible

1414
00:57:52,430 --> 00:57:50,099
ears

1415
00:57:54,650 --> 00:57:52,440
there was no hair that I could see only

1416
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:54,660
some very sparse you know kind of like

1417
00:57:59,150 --> 00:57:56,640
what I got very sparse hair

1418
00:58:03,650 --> 00:57:59,160
and um

1419
00:58:06,170 --> 00:58:03,660
his eyes his eyes weren't

1420
00:58:09,710 --> 00:58:06,180
as big as what the Grays had I mean they

1421
00:58:12,410 --> 00:58:09,720
weren't like Motion Picture kind of huge

1422
00:58:15,230 --> 00:58:12,420
they were almond shaped but they were

1423
00:58:18,890 --> 00:58:15,240
about the size of a pair of Ray-Bans

1424
00:58:21,049 --> 00:58:18,900
you know uh and they were they were jet

1425
00:58:23,750 --> 00:58:21,059
black and kind of wrapped around

1426
00:58:29,089 --> 00:58:26,329
this guy walks across my field of vision

1427
00:58:31,010 --> 00:58:29,099
from my left to my right

1428
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:31,020
and

1429
00:58:34,730 --> 00:58:32,880
I you know I pay attention to the way

1430
00:58:37,370 --> 00:58:34,740
people carry themselves I always have

1431
00:58:40,789 --> 00:58:37,380
and this guy carried himself like an

1432
00:58:43,970 --> 00:58:40,799
officer or someone an authority

1433
00:58:46,250 --> 00:58:43,980
and uh he didn't look in my direction

1434
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,260
but he walked past me

1435
00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:49,440
and he is somewhere to my left and I'm

1436
00:58:55,010 --> 00:58:52,380
straining my eyes as hard as I can to my

1437
00:58:58,069 --> 00:58:55,020
left to look at this guy

1438
00:59:00,650 --> 00:58:58,079
and as I'm doing that he turned and I

1439
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:00,660
think just by chance by happenstance he

1440
00:59:09,470 --> 00:59:07,190
and I don't have a better way to explain

1441
00:59:11,690 --> 00:59:09,480
this other than to say that this guy was

1442
00:59:15,530 --> 00:59:11,700
in my head

1443
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,540
uh I mean he knew me he knew my plans he

1444
00:59:21,650 --> 00:59:18,000
knew my wife you knew my dreams he knew

1445
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:21,660
my secrets he knew everything about me

1446
00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:23,520
um and I guess they would call that a

1447
00:59:30,589 --> 00:59:25,980
download that he downloaded my mind but

1448
00:59:32,990 --> 00:59:30,599
I felt like he was just in my head

1449
00:59:35,750 --> 00:59:33,000
and what I got

1450
00:59:38,329 --> 00:59:35,760
what I got back from those eyes

1451
00:59:39,289 --> 00:59:38,339
was just intellect

1452
00:59:43,609 --> 00:59:39,299
um

1453
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:43,619
I felt inferior to this thing

1454
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:45,359
I felt inferior intellectually

1455
00:59:51,470 --> 00:59:48,960
emotionally physically every way you can

1456
00:59:55,370 --> 00:59:51,480
you can think about it matter of fact I

1457
00:59:58,010 --> 00:59:55,380
use the analogy I have a cat who's

1458
01:00:00,770 --> 00:59:58,020
being kind of difficult right now I have

1459
01:00:02,809 --> 01:00:00,780
a house all right we'll come over

1460
01:00:06,289 --> 01:00:02,819
you know and I'll pet her and she'll

1461
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:06,299
look at me you know with those eyes and

1462
01:00:10,490 --> 01:00:06,960
um

1463
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:10,500
I she knows that I'm the food provider

1464
01:00:16,849 --> 01:00:13,040
and in that regard as much as a cat can

1465
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:16,859
I'm the alpha in the equation and I

1466
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:18,720
think she knows that and we each have

1467
01:00:23,630 --> 01:00:21,359
our respective roles

1468
01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:23,640
and when I saw this guy I felt like I

1469
01:00:29,089 --> 01:00:25,920
was the calf

1470
01:00:31,970 --> 01:00:29,099
in the equation I felt that inferior as

1471
01:00:35,630 --> 01:00:34,010
and that was frightening because I had

1472
01:00:37,549 --> 01:00:35,640
never considered

1473
01:00:39,170 --> 01:00:37,559
that there were other sentient beings

1474
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,180
out there

1475
01:00:44,690 --> 01:00:41,520
that weren't our equals they were they

1476
01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:44,700
were above us and uh that was an

1477
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:48,240
epiphany that was a frightening epiphany

1478
01:00:51,710 --> 01:00:49,500
so

1479
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:51,720
but you're still feeding fear at this

1480
01:00:56,750 --> 01:00:54,240
point what was the you've had the

1481
01:00:58,849 --> 01:00:56,760
sedation the sleepiness the fear now

1482
01:01:01,430 --> 01:00:58,859
you've got this this memory of being on

1483
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:01,440
board and this this other entity locks

1484
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:04,079
eyes do you remember feeling scared did

1485
01:01:11,329 --> 01:01:09,770
you're asking about my level of fear if

1486
01:01:13,370 --> 01:01:11,339
I'm understanding yeah do you remember

1487
01:01:15,049 --> 01:01:13,380
was there still a feeling of sedation at

1488
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,059
this point or

1489
01:01:20,210 --> 01:01:18,059
no no unfortunately the sedation was all

1490
01:01:23,329 --> 01:01:20,220
gone I would have loved to have had some

1491
01:01:25,849 --> 01:01:23,339
sedation I was absolutely terrified I I

1492
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:25,859
absolutely was the most afraid I'd ever

1493
01:01:32,329 --> 01:01:28,559
been in my life

1494
01:01:34,849 --> 01:01:32,339
I didn't know their intention

1495
01:01:38,270 --> 01:01:34,859
had they given me some slight bit of

1496
01:01:41,210 --> 01:01:38,280
intention like you know relax uh you're

1497
01:01:43,069 --> 01:01:41,220
here we're just doing some studying uh

1498
01:01:45,950 --> 01:01:43,079
you know we'll be done with you shortly

1499
01:01:47,809 --> 01:01:45,960
and uh we'll get you on your way and who

1500
01:01:49,549 --> 01:01:47,819
knows they may have told me that and I

1501
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:49,559
just have no memory of it

1502
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:52,079
but at the time I saw this guy walk

1503
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:54,720
across my field of vision I had no idea

1504
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:56,880
what I was there for I had no idea if

1505
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:00,240
they were going to dissect us eat us I

1506
01:02:06,410 --> 01:02:02,880
had no idea what was going on so I was

1507
01:02:08,329 --> 01:02:06,420
absolutely uh absolutely terrified

1508
01:02:10,250 --> 01:02:08,339
and one more thing before you move on

1509
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:10,260
again continue

1510
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:12,240
because that is really important I think

1511
01:02:16,730 --> 01:02:14,160
many people when discussing abduction

1512
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:16,740
experiences will tell you that the

1513
01:02:21,109 --> 01:02:18,960
beings are very reassuring that they

1514
01:02:24,650 --> 01:02:21,119
have that over overwhelming sense of

1515
01:02:27,470 --> 01:02:24,660
calm that it's a very almost pleasant

1516
01:02:29,329 --> 01:02:27,480
experience yet you hear other

1517
01:02:30,890 --> 01:02:29,339
experiences like you say you might not

1518
01:02:33,530 --> 01:02:30,900
remember but people like Whitley

1519
01:02:35,390 --> 01:02:33,540
strieber Calvin Parker don't have

1520
01:02:37,370 --> 01:02:35,400
pleasant experiences it's very much

1521
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:37,380
against their will they're scared

1522
01:02:42,829 --> 01:02:39,180
they're frightened they're anxious they

1523
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,839
have they have ex procedures carried out

1524
01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:45,359
on them which they did not want

1525
01:02:49,089 --> 01:02:46,980
and

1526
01:02:51,890 --> 01:02:49,099
why do you think those experience

1527
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:51,900
experiences can differ from person to

1528
01:02:54,289 --> 01:02:52,799
person

1529
01:02:57,049 --> 01:02:54,299
you know that's a great question because

1530
01:02:59,930 --> 01:02:57,059
it does experiences differ from person

1531
01:03:01,730 --> 01:02:59,940
to person it'd be a lot more helpful if

1532
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:01,740
we all had the same story

1533
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:03,599
because we could all bolster one

1534
01:03:06,829 --> 01:03:05,280
another's experience

1535
01:03:09,470 --> 01:03:06,839
but that doesn't seem to be the case

1536
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:09,480
everybody has a little bit everybody has

1537
01:03:13,370 --> 01:03:12,000
a different experience the reason that I

1538
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:13,380
think that they

1539
01:03:16,910 --> 01:03:16,319
had us sedated

1540
01:03:20,390 --> 01:03:16,920
um

1541
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:20,400
initially well I don't know but the

1542
01:03:26,930 --> 01:03:23,520
reason for that wasn't for our comfort

1543
01:03:30,430 --> 01:03:26,940
it was for their ease in handling us

1544
01:03:35,510 --> 01:03:30,440
that that's what I believe so it wasn't

1545
01:03:37,490 --> 01:03:35,520
it wasn't for our comfort it was done uh

1546
01:03:39,890 --> 01:03:37,500
they struck me as being you know very

1547
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:39,900
pragmatic uh

1548
01:03:46,190 --> 01:03:42,480
and I and I well I didn't see them go

1549
01:03:48,250 --> 01:03:46,200
out of their way to be malicious uh to

1550
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:48,260
worry me

1551
01:03:59,450 --> 01:03:56,030
they were benign

1552
01:04:02,390 --> 01:03:59,460
and what we ex what we experienced pain

1553
01:04:05,210 --> 01:04:02,400
wise and fear wise was

1554
01:04:07,849 --> 01:04:05,220
what I call collateral damage it was

1555
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:07,859
unintentional but it uh it happened

1556
01:04:11,990 --> 01:04:10,079
nonetheless you know I had a lot of

1557
01:04:13,730 --> 01:04:12,000
anger and a lot of resentment toward

1558
01:04:15,650 --> 01:04:13,740
these things

1559
01:04:18,289 --> 01:04:15,660
after the event

1560
01:04:20,510 --> 01:04:18,299
and uh

1561
01:04:22,870 --> 01:04:20,520
but you know it's been so long ago it's

1562
01:04:26,030 --> 01:04:22,880
been part of my life for 40 years

1563
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:26,040
I've come to accept what had happened to

1564
01:04:32,690 --> 01:04:30,240
me it helps uh I had no idea until 2018

1565
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,700
when I wrote this book and published it

1566
01:04:36,650 --> 01:04:34,319
that there were so many people that have

1567
01:04:38,690 --> 01:04:36,660
had similar experiences it's very

1568
01:04:41,030 --> 01:04:38,700
helpful to know that I'm not alone that

1569
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:41,040
there are others out there who who had

1570
01:04:45,170 --> 01:04:43,200
their experience too do you think it

1571
01:04:46,910 --> 01:04:45,180
points to there being a range of beings

1572
01:04:48,950 --> 01:04:46,920
or entities carrying out these

1573
01:04:51,650 --> 01:04:48,960
abductions when you have some people

1574
01:04:53,630 --> 01:04:51,660
like I say having Pleasant experiences

1575
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:53,640
and other people having less Pleasant

1576
01:04:58,910 --> 01:04:56,400
experiences but it makes sense that you

1577
01:05:01,309 --> 01:04:58,920
have one set of beings who are nicer and

1578
01:05:03,049 --> 01:05:01,319
one set of beings who are not as nice

1579
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:03,059
shall we say

1580
01:05:08,990 --> 01:05:05,520
yeah no that makes sense to me that that

1581
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:09,000
makes sense I I think that there are who

1582
01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:11,280
knows dozens hundreds thousands who

1583
01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:13,260
knows how we have no way to know

1584
01:05:18,410 --> 01:05:17,520
of different races species of entities

1585
01:05:24,770 --> 01:05:18,420
um

1586
01:05:29,210 --> 01:05:24,780
come to us with all kinds of intentions

1587
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:29,220
now I I know uh Linda Moulton Howe

1588
01:05:35,870 --> 01:05:33,119
who did a lot of research in regard to

1589
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:35,880
cattle mutilations from western part of

1590
01:05:39,530 --> 01:05:37,440
the United States

1591
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:39,540
and uh

1592
01:05:44,510 --> 01:05:42,240
she has some frightening stories of what

1593
01:05:48,170 --> 01:05:44,520
these poor animals were subjected to

1594
01:05:51,289 --> 01:05:48,180
and the amount of

1595
01:05:56,270 --> 01:05:51,299
the number of cattle abductions

1596
01:05:58,370 --> 01:05:56,280
just is in incredible and and it how you

1597
01:06:00,289 --> 01:05:58,380
wonder how could this happen how can

1598
01:06:01,730 --> 01:06:00,299
this how could this possibly happen but

1599
01:06:03,470 --> 01:06:01,740
but it does

1600
01:06:06,650 --> 01:06:03,480
and it's the same with human beings

1601
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:06,660
human beings disappear

1602
01:06:11,510 --> 01:06:09,359
way more often than they should hundreds

1603
01:06:13,490 --> 01:06:11,520
you know they're like lots of people

1604
01:06:16,010 --> 01:06:13,500
like Rodney Letterman go out for a walk

1605
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:16,020
in a in a state or national forest and

1606
01:06:21,410 --> 01:06:18,480
they're just they're just gone

1607
01:06:24,410 --> 01:06:21,420
and and our government keeps those

1608
01:06:25,730 --> 01:06:24,420
numbers secret as David Pilates will

1609
01:06:28,970 --> 01:06:25,740
tell you

1610
01:06:31,309 --> 01:06:28,980
um there there is you can't go and get a

1611
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:31,319
list of who's missing uh they won't

1612
01:06:36,589 --> 01:06:34,319
share that information with you if you

1613
01:06:38,410 --> 01:06:36,599
try to file a Freedom of Information Act

1614
01:06:40,730 --> 01:06:38,420
and get information

1615
01:06:42,650 --> 01:06:40,740
they will um

1616
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:42,660
so sure we can help you out but there's

1617
01:06:47,329 --> 01:06:45,119
going to be a bill for that and and the

1618
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:47,339
wrong the law is written where they can

1619
01:06:55,430 --> 01:06:51,420
they can charge reasonable uh

1620
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,440
uh charges for cost of reproducing the

1621
01:06:58,329 --> 01:06:57,599
documents and Postage and that and the

1622
01:07:00,470 --> 01:06:58,339
like

1623
01:07:02,270 --> 01:07:00,480
but they came back and told David

1624
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:02,280
Pilates yeah we can send you the file

1625
01:07:07,250 --> 01:07:05,520
it'd be about seventeen thousand dollars

1626
01:07:10,309 --> 01:07:07,260
um and just

1627
01:07:12,529 --> 01:07:10,319
you know did everything they did

1628
01:07:14,569 --> 01:07:12,539
to kind of go through looking like

1629
01:07:17,329 --> 01:07:14,579
they're trying to comply but there was

1630
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:17,339
no genuine compliance there whatsoever

1631
01:07:23,450 --> 01:07:20,880
so uh somebody at some level knows

1632
01:07:25,430 --> 01:07:23,460
what's going on

1633
01:07:27,529 --> 01:07:25,440
or at least they know that this is going

1634
01:07:28,849 --> 01:07:27,539
on they may not know the backstory

1635
01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:28,859
but

1636
01:07:30,890 --> 01:07:29,520
um

1637
01:07:33,230 --> 01:07:30,900
well I think we're going to get there

1638
01:07:35,870 --> 01:07:33,240
with your story too because the office

1639
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:35,880
of special investigations comes in but

1640
01:07:39,230 --> 01:07:37,200
there was probably a little bit more

1641
01:07:40,789 --> 01:07:39,240
before we get there so you're on board

1642
01:07:43,789 --> 01:07:40,799
the craft and you're straining you've

1643
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:43,799
locked eyes you feel you're getting a

1644
01:07:47,630 --> 01:07:45,660
connection with this other entity he's

1645
01:07:48,410 --> 01:07:47,640
inside your head or it's inside your

1646
01:07:51,049 --> 01:07:48,420
head

1647
01:07:54,410 --> 01:07:51,059
yes what happens from that point

1648
01:07:58,309 --> 01:07:54,420
I I don't have a memory of what happened

1649
01:08:00,529 --> 01:07:58,319
uh I just have little vignettes uh and

1650
01:08:02,450 --> 01:08:00,539
so there's a gap and then I have a

1651
01:08:06,589 --> 01:08:02,460
vignette of um

1652
01:08:08,750 --> 01:08:06,599
a scene of scene and this confused me

1653
01:08:12,170 --> 01:08:08,760
about um

1654
01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:12,180
about eight people uh they were young

1655
01:08:17,450 --> 01:08:14,640
they were our age they were 18 to 22

1656
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:17,460
years of age they were dressed in tan

1657
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:19,440
colored flight suits

1658
01:08:24,130 --> 01:08:21,839
they had combat boots that looked an

1659
01:08:26,570 --> 01:08:24,140
awful lot like mine

1660
01:08:27,890 --> 01:08:26,580
they're a fair distance away so they're

1661
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:27,900
not close enough that I can get a great

1662
01:08:33,530 --> 01:08:30,000
look at them but these are absolutely

1663
01:08:35,510 --> 01:08:33,540
human beings I mean by all appearance

1664
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:35,520
these are human beings

1665
01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:38,400
and They Carried themselves like they

1666
01:08:45,769 --> 01:08:41,759
were crew members like they belong there

1667
01:08:46,910 --> 01:08:45,779
um there were seven men and one woman

1668
01:08:51,890 --> 01:08:46,920
um

1669
01:08:53,289 --> 01:08:51,900
they all wore short military style

1670
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:53,299
haircuts

1671
01:08:57,950 --> 01:08:56,100
the woman had her hair pulled back in a

1672
01:09:01,010 --> 01:08:57,960
ponytail

1673
01:09:03,470 --> 01:09:01,020
and there was a red patch on the

1674
01:09:07,010 --> 01:09:03,480
shoulder left shoulder of their uniforms

1675
01:09:09,650 --> 01:09:07,020
a round patch with uh that was I said

1676
01:09:11,870 --> 01:09:09,660
red it was more of an orange color with

1677
01:09:15,169 --> 01:09:11,880
white writing on it that I couldn't

1678
01:09:17,570 --> 01:09:15,179
discern I was too far away to see it I

1679
01:09:21,950 --> 01:09:17,580
went as far as to uh

1680
01:09:25,970 --> 01:09:21,960
my my good friend is a psychiatrist

1681
01:09:28,849 --> 01:09:25,980
uh a medical doctor and uh

1682
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:28,859
he knows my story and he asked me if I'd

1683
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:31,920
care to be hypnotized to see if I could

1684
01:09:36,370 --> 01:09:34,560
read or describe or draw what was on

1685
01:09:40,010 --> 01:09:36,380
those patches

1686
01:09:43,010 --> 01:09:40,020
and I said that I didn't want to be

1687
01:09:45,709 --> 01:09:43,020
I didn't want to relive the entire thing

1688
01:09:47,570 --> 01:09:45,719
but if we could very narrow in scope try

1689
01:09:49,789 --> 01:09:47,580
to take me back where I could read those

1690
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:49,799
patches

1691
01:09:56,510 --> 01:09:53,759
I I wouldn't mind doing that so it took

1692
01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:56,520
a couple attempts but he finally I got

1693
01:10:00,410 --> 01:09:58,320
relaxed and I think that I was in that

1694
01:10:03,050 --> 01:10:00,420
meditative state

1695
01:10:04,669 --> 01:10:03,060
um but they were just too far away I I

1696
01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:04,679
couldn't tell you what was what was on

1697
01:10:12,770 --> 01:10:10,970
at least you attempted that though and

1698
01:10:15,050 --> 01:10:12,780
that's something that again we've seen

1699
01:10:18,169 --> 01:10:15,060
Whitley strieber and his regression

1700
01:10:20,570 --> 01:10:18,179
tapes that have been played in the the

1701
01:10:22,910 --> 01:10:20,580
harrowing screams that that come out of

1702
01:10:23,930 --> 01:10:22,920
them are just star almost inhuman and

1703
01:10:25,490 --> 01:10:23,940
that's something that people haven't

1704
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,500
heard it's on it's on various

1705
01:10:28,610 --> 01:10:27,360
documentaries but also on his website I

1706
01:10:30,110 --> 01:10:28,620
believe as well

1707
01:10:31,610 --> 01:10:30,120
um it's not a pleasant thing to have to

1708
01:10:33,890 --> 01:10:31,620
go back and relive

1709
01:10:35,450 --> 01:10:33,900
were there any other of these can I I'm

1710
01:10:37,370 --> 01:10:35,460
thinking in modern terms it's like

1711
01:10:39,709 --> 01:10:37,380
YouTube shorts or vignettes as you call

1712
01:10:40,610 --> 01:10:39,719
them these these short busts or clips of

1713
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:40,620
memories

1714
01:10:44,209 --> 01:10:42,540
what else do you remember or is it a

1715
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,219
case of then you're you're kind of back

1716
01:10:47,689 --> 01:10:46,320
in the tent yeah there's a there's a

1717
01:10:49,250 --> 01:10:47,699
couple things I should include real

1718
01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:49,260
quick they're short

1719
01:10:51,530 --> 01:10:49,920
um

1720
01:10:54,530 --> 01:10:51,540
I forgot to mention it while I was

1721
01:10:56,990 --> 01:10:54,540
holding on to my clothing before this

1722
01:10:59,330 --> 01:10:57,000
personal walk or this entity walked past

1723
01:11:03,169 --> 01:10:59,340
me and got my attention I'm holding on

1724
01:11:07,490 --> 01:11:03,179
I'm looking around and there were on my

1725
01:11:11,570 --> 01:11:07,500
left there were a row of flying discs uh

1726
01:11:13,010 --> 01:11:11,580
uh metallic aluminum like disc lined up

1727
01:11:16,010 --> 01:11:13,020
like you know like

1728
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:16,020
airplanes on a underneath the carrier

1729
01:11:20,390 --> 01:11:18,960
you know and a hanger they they were

1730
01:11:22,490 --> 01:11:20,400
lined up and there were these huge

1731
01:11:26,209 --> 01:11:22,500
garage door looking things

1732
01:11:27,110 --> 01:11:26,219
uh that I guess that they use to go in

1733
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:27,120
common

1734
01:11:31,250 --> 01:11:29,520
uh the other thing that I saw where

1735
01:11:32,930 --> 01:11:31,260
there were multiple levels this thing

1736
01:11:34,669 --> 01:11:32,940
was very high I could not see the

1737
01:11:37,610 --> 01:11:34,679
ceiling because I could not tip my head

1738
01:11:39,950 --> 01:11:37,620
back but there were multiple levels of

1739
01:11:42,169 --> 01:11:39,960
rails all around this thing so it was

1740
01:11:45,530 --> 01:11:42,179
huge it was enormous

1741
01:11:47,209 --> 01:11:45,540
uh I saw a vehicle that looked like a

1742
01:11:49,910 --> 01:11:47,219
golf cart

1743
01:11:51,410 --> 01:11:49,920
uh that had no wheels I could see no

1744
01:11:54,590 --> 01:11:51,420
visible

1745
01:11:57,290 --> 01:11:54,600
way for it to move but it moved and it

1746
01:11:59,450 --> 01:11:57,300
was carrying some gray guys in it and

1747
01:12:01,610 --> 01:11:59,460
they were just moving along I didn't

1748
01:12:04,070 --> 01:12:01,620
make any noise

1749
01:12:06,169 --> 01:12:04,080
um to my right

1750
01:12:08,270 --> 01:12:06,179
I saw

1751
01:12:11,689 --> 01:12:08,280
I don't know how many there were because

1752
01:12:15,050 --> 01:12:11,699
I could only see the first row

1753
01:12:18,229 --> 01:12:15,060
uh maybe a dozen human beings

1754
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:18,239
like us only these weren't

1755
01:12:21,770 --> 01:12:20,159
these were a mix of men women and

1756
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:21,780
children

1757
01:12:25,850 --> 01:12:24,600
and I have no idea who they were or how

1758
01:12:29,330 --> 01:12:25,860
they got there

1759
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:29,340
uh and they my first thought was I'm

1760
01:12:35,090 --> 01:12:32,159
glad I'm not part of their party I'm

1761
01:12:39,169 --> 01:12:35,100
glad we're they we were segregated off

1762
01:12:45,130 --> 01:12:42,350
these people were in distress they were

1763
01:12:48,530 --> 01:12:45,140
paralyzed but they were in distress

1764
01:12:50,090 --> 01:12:48,540
their eyes were all moving all over the

1765
01:12:52,669 --> 01:12:50,100
place because they're trying to drink in

1766
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:52,679
their surroundings just like I was and

1767
01:12:58,910 --> 01:12:54,659
they're all crying every single one of

1768
01:13:00,110 --> 01:12:58,920
them is crying I was probably crying but

1769
01:13:03,470 --> 01:13:00,120
these people look like they were in

1770
01:13:04,910 --> 01:13:03,480
distress and I don't know

1771
01:13:07,729 --> 01:13:04,920
you know there could have been a hundred

1772
01:13:09,470 --> 01:13:07,739
people in queue and back of them or it

1773
01:13:11,450 --> 01:13:09,480
could have just been the dozen or so

1774
01:13:14,330 --> 01:13:11,460
that I could see I have no idea how many

1775
01:13:15,169 --> 01:13:14,340
people there were but I know this those

1776
01:13:17,270 --> 01:13:15,179
people

1777
01:13:19,610 --> 01:13:17,280
must have been there when they took us

1778
01:13:21,890 --> 01:13:19,620
on board

1779
01:13:22,850 --> 01:13:21,900
and I don't know where those people came

1780
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:22,860
from

1781
01:13:30,110 --> 01:13:25,440
and I don't know where they went but

1782
01:13:35,689 --> 01:13:32,630
and that's that's troubled me to this

1783
01:13:38,450 --> 01:13:35,699
day is I guess Survivor guilt or or

1784
01:13:41,570 --> 01:13:38,460
whatever and I just

1785
01:13:43,729 --> 01:13:41,580
wonder what happened to those people

1786
01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:43,739
so have you ever had a case where

1787
01:13:47,810 --> 01:13:45,360
someone has had an abduction and I

1788
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:47,820
wonder even yourself where they've then

1789
01:13:52,669 --> 01:13:50,159
heard of someone else being abducted on

1790
01:13:54,649 --> 01:13:52,679
the same date the same place wouldn't

1791
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:54,659
necessarily matter because that could

1792
01:13:59,930 --> 01:13:57,360
have been a family from Brazil or you

1793
01:14:02,270 --> 01:13:59,940
know God I'm just Japan somewhere else

1794
01:14:04,189 --> 01:14:02,280
on the planet and you just happen to be

1795
01:14:07,070 --> 01:14:04,199
on the same craft as them which then in

1796
01:14:09,649 --> 01:14:07,080
a later time you meet and yeah we were

1797
01:14:11,630 --> 01:14:09,659
abducted on the same day same time

1798
01:14:13,790 --> 01:14:11,640
anything that happened

1799
01:14:15,290 --> 01:14:13,800
I I think that's right you know what I

1800
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:15,300
did was in the back of incident at

1801
01:14:20,090 --> 01:14:17,760
Devil's Den I put my email address you

1802
01:14:22,310 --> 01:14:20,100
know terrylovely said yahoo.com you want

1803
01:14:23,810 --> 01:14:22,320
to email me and you know I return all my

1804
01:14:25,729 --> 01:14:23,820
emails

1805
01:14:27,890 --> 01:14:25,739
um

1806
01:14:30,050 --> 01:14:27,900
I ask if you've had an experience and

1807
01:14:31,790 --> 01:14:30,060
you want to share it you know

1808
01:14:34,910 --> 01:14:31,800
write to me

1809
01:14:36,050 --> 01:14:34,920
and I've had now over 4 000 people write

1810
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:36,060
to me

1811
01:14:39,709 --> 01:14:37,679
uh you shouldn't sharing their

1812
01:14:43,490 --> 01:14:39,719
experience and

1813
01:14:44,870 --> 01:14:43,500
I I did a spreadsheet looking for

1814
01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:44,880
commonalities

1815
01:14:52,310 --> 01:14:49,440
noticed was you mentioned families being

1816
01:14:54,590 --> 01:14:52,320
abducted I had a lot of people write to

1817
01:14:56,810 --> 01:14:54,600
me and say you know

1818
01:14:59,810 --> 01:14:56,820
we were one of the ones that sticks out

1819
01:15:01,610 --> 01:14:59,820
is a family that was on vacation they're

1820
01:15:04,490 --> 01:15:01,620
in a car park they're

1821
01:15:04,970 --> 01:15:04,500
going they're either going or coming and

1822
01:15:05,870 --> 01:15:04,980
[Music]

1823
01:15:08,689 --> 01:15:05,880
um

1824
01:15:10,850 --> 01:15:08,699
they recall seeing a thing in the sky

1825
01:15:11,930 --> 01:15:10,860
they recall seeing a silver disc in the

1826
01:15:14,330 --> 01:15:11,940
sky

1827
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:14,340
and it was parked and they were all just

1828
01:15:18,770 --> 01:15:17,040
kind of like look at that

1829
01:15:24,169 --> 01:15:18,780
and then

1830
01:15:26,030 --> 01:15:24,179
because it was just getting Dusk and

1831
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:26,040
then suddenly it was night time

1832
01:15:30,830 --> 01:15:28,560
hmm and they all went back to their room

1833
01:15:32,689 --> 01:15:30,840
and they went right to sleep

1834
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:32,699
and um

1835
01:15:37,689 --> 01:15:35,040
whatever happened happened to all of

1836
01:15:41,810 --> 01:15:37,699
them I think there were six in total

1837
01:15:43,729 --> 01:15:41,820
but this this was very common I had

1838
01:15:46,669 --> 01:15:43,739
people tell me that in in these

1839
01:15:48,890 --> 01:15:46,679
abductions just like

1840
01:15:51,530 --> 01:15:48,900
my relationship with my friend Toby

1841
01:15:53,330 --> 01:15:51,540
changed after this event

1842
01:15:55,250 --> 01:15:53,340
where this guy was my best friend in the

1843
01:15:57,410 --> 01:15:55,260
world I really didn't care to be around

1844
01:16:00,410 --> 01:15:57,420
him I did not want to talk to him about

1845
01:16:05,390 --> 01:16:03,470
and and that's real common uh this one

1846
01:16:08,030 --> 01:16:05,400
family like I said had the six of them

1847
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:08,040
had this experience and

1848
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:11,040
um they were at a a dinner some kind of

1849
01:16:17,090 --> 01:16:14,940
uh holiday dinner and uh you know Uncle

1850
01:16:20,390 --> 01:16:17,100
Joe everybody's got an Uncle Joe right

1851
01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:20,400
Uncle Joe speaks up and says uh hey any

1852
01:16:23,689 --> 01:16:21,900
of you guys remember when we were on

1853
01:16:25,370 --> 01:16:23,699
vacation in that parking lot we saw that

1854
01:16:29,689 --> 01:16:25,380
thing in the sky

1855
01:16:31,070 --> 01:16:29,699
and everybody at the table stopped it

1856
01:16:34,610 --> 01:16:31,080
was just silence

1857
01:16:36,830 --> 01:16:34,620
a couple people excused themselves

1858
01:16:38,930 --> 01:16:36,840
um you know Uncle Joe was the only one

1859
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:38,940
that had any appetite after that

1860
01:16:42,830 --> 01:16:41,520
uh but people are just reticent they're

1861
01:16:44,750 --> 01:16:42,840
reluctant they don't want to talk about

1862
01:16:46,189 --> 01:16:44,760
it and again I think it speaks to the

1863
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:46,199
level of influence that these things

1864
01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:51,169
well let's Carry On from there Teddy

1865
01:16:54,410 --> 01:16:53,280
your thanks for letting me Sidetrack you

1866
01:16:55,850 --> 01:16:54,420
for a few minutes with some of those

1867
01:16:58,790 --> 01:16:55,860
questions but I felt it was a good place

1868
01:17:01,310 --> 01:16:58,800
to ask them what happens next in your

1869
01:17:04,010 --> 01:17:01,320
own experience

1870
01:17:06,169 --> 01:17:04,020
the last again I called it a vignette

1871
01:17:09,470 --> 01:17:06,179
the last thing I remember

1872
01:17:10,370 --> 01:17:09,480
was we were taken

1873
01:17:12,470 --> 01:17:10,380
um

1874
01:17:14,390 --> 01:17:12,480
they came the little gray guys came and

1875
01:17:16,669 --> 01:17:14,400
they took Toby

1876
01:17:18,830 --> 01:17:16,679
um one of them took his belongings

1877
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:18,840
clothing and shoes I don't know what

1878
01:17:22,010 --> 01:17:20,159
their boots I don't know what they did

1879
01:17:25,130 --> 01:17:22,020
with them but took them from him

1880
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:25,140
and then he was

1881
01:17:30,169 --> 01:17:27,840
they rolled him like he was it was like

1882
01:17:33,169 --> 01:17:30,179
he had you know skates on or something

1883
01:17:37,250 --> 01:17:33,179
they rolled him across the flooring and

1884
01:17:42,530 --> 01:17:37,260
uh he went somewhere down the hallway

1885
01:17:45,290 --> 01:17:42,540
and some while later I heard him scream

1886
01:17:49,729 --> 01:17:45,300
and recognized his voice and he said no

1887
01:17:52,010 --> 01:17:49,739
no no no no no and then he screamed

1888
01:17:54,350 --> 01:17:52,020
and um

1889
01:17:55,070 --> 01:17:54,360
and I was that was just over the top for

1890
01:17:56,630 --> 01:17:55,080
me

1891
01:17:58,130 --> 01:17:56,640
and I

1892
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,140
because I knew it was going to be my

1893
01:18:02,750 --> 01:18:00,480
turn next and sure enough it was and

1894
01:18:04,790 --> 01:18:02,760
they came and they took my belongings

1895
01:18:07,370 --> 01:18:04,800
and um

1896
01:18:09,290 --> 01:18:07,380
I couldn't feel the soles of my feet

1897
01:18:11,450 --> 01:18:09,300
against the floor

1898
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:11,460
it was like a cushion of air or

1899
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:12,480
something

1900
01:18:19,610 --> 01:18:16,980
and they just glided me down down toward

1901
01:18:22,610 --> 01:18:19,620
a hallway that went to the left and I

1902
01:18:29,030 --> 01:18:25,910
and on my right again I can only move my

1903
01:18:32,450 --> 01:18:29,040
eyes on my right I could see what looked

1904
01:18:36,050 --> 01:18:32,460
like uh fish aquariums

1905
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:36,060
in varying sizes from

1906
01:18:40,850 --> 01:18:38,520
small to big enough for a human being to

1907
01:18:49,130 --> 01:18:45,649
and in one of these aquariums was what I

1908
01:18:51,770 --> 01:18:49,140
took to be a puppy it looked like a

1909
01:18:54,970 --> 01:18:51,780
puppy it had how you know how newborn

1910
01:18:58,550 --> 01:18:54,980
puppies have the wrinkles rules of skin

1911
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:58,560
it had that the water was Pink There was

1912
01:19:02,830 --> 01:19:00,719
an umbilical cord

1913
01:19:05,870 --> 01:19:02,840
floating in the water

1914
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:05,880
and as they're rolling me down this

1915
01:19:12,830 --> 01:19:08,880
hallway I'm looking at this thing

1916
01:19:16,370 --> 01:19:12,840
thinking what is it and it opened an eye

1917
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:16,380
and uh I could see it was a an eye there

1918
01:19:21,470 --> 01:19:18,239
was a sclera the white part of the eye

1919
01:19:23,390 --> 01:19:21,480
an iris and a pupil it was a uh but it

1920
01:19:24,890 --> 01:19:23,400
wasn't a human eye it was an animal like

1921
01:19:26,209 --> 01:19:24,900
I

1922
01:19:28,669 --> 01:19:26,219
yeah

1923
01:19:29,870 --> 01:19:28,679
at the end of this hallway was an arch

1924
01:19:34,030 --> 01:19:29,880
door

1925
01:19:37,310 --> 01:19:34,040
and I went into this room and it had a

1926
01:19:38,750 --> 01:19:37,320
domed ceiling everything was white most

1927
01:19:42,770 --> 01:19:38,760
everything in this thing was either

1928
01:19:45,410 --> 01:19:42,780
stainless steel white or gray in color

1929
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:45,420
and there was an exam table there

1930
01:19:51,229 --> 01:19:48,480
and they picked me up

1931
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:51,239
levitated me somehow horizontal and I'm

1932
01:19:57,050 --> 01:19:54,000
on this exam table

1933
01:20:00,350 --> 01:19:57,060
and I I want to make it clear that as

1934
01:20:07,370 --> 01:20:03,890
I got this genuine medical clinical vibe

1935
01:20:10,010 --> 01:20:07,380
to it it wasn't uh I wasn't expecting a

1936
01:20:16,450 --> 01:20:10,020
torture session like I say there was

1937
01:20:20,870 --> 01:20:16,460
some kind of medical clinical sterile uh

1938
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:20,880
procedural vibe to it that um

1939
01:20:24,350 --> 01:20:22,800
you know

1940
01:20:25,850 --> 01:20:24,360
I think if

1941
01:20:27,350 --> 01:20:25,860
if I could have gotten to answer my

1942
01:20:30,169 --> 01:20:27,360
questions I think they'd say you know

1943
01:20:32,450 --> 01:20:30,179
just doing my job man I mean it had that

1944
01:20:34,970 --> 01:20:32,460
yeah it was professional it was skilled

1945
01:20:37,610 --> 01:20:34,980
yes yes

1946
01:20:39,709 --> 01:20:37,620
and uh

1947
01:20:42,410 --> 01:20:39,719
they whatever they did they did

1948
01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:42,420
something to my lower back

1949
01:20:48,110 --> 01:20:45,300
and it hurt a lot

1950
01:20:52,370 --> 01:20:48,120
and through clenched teeth because I

1951
01:20:59,270 --> 01:20:55,910
the things that were working on me

1952
01:21:01,370 --> 01:20:59,280
are they look like a praying mantis

1953
01:21:04,330 --> 01:21:01,380
eight nine feet tall I can't tell

1954
01:21:08,149 --> 01:21:04,340
because I'm on a table but they're big

1955
01:21:10,850 --> 01:21:08,159
and they have insectoid like hands

1956
01:21:13,130 --> 01:21:10,860
and they have digits that come off their

1957
01:21:16,010 --> 01:21:13,140
arms and they're manipulating multiple

1958
01:21:17,810 --> 01:21:16,020
stainless steel objects

1959
01:21:19,330 --> 01:21:17,820
and there are objects that are just

1960
01:21:23,030 --> 01:21:19,340
hanging in the air

1961
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:23,040
there are tools of some kind

1962
01:21:28,189 --> 01:21:24,600
and they're doing something to my lower

1963
01:21:31,910 --> 01:21:28,199
back and again it hurt and I'm screaming

1964
01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:31,920
and I think that I annoyed this thing

1965
01:21:36,050 --> 01:21:33,600
uh

1966
01:21:37,970 --> 01:21:36,060
and and I get I get a lot of flack about

1967
01:21:40,550 --> 01:21:37,980
this because people say oh no they don't

1968
01:21:42,649 --> 01:21:40,560
do that well they do do that they did it

1969
01:21:45,410 --> 01:21:42,659
to me this

1970
01:21:48,790 --> 01:21:45,420
this insectoid thing that had a large

1971
01:21:51,410 --> 01:21:48,800
triangular shaped head with a multi-lens

1972
01:21:54,530 --> 01:21:51,420
multifaceted eyes

1973
01:21:57,590 --> 01:21:54,540
turned its head toward me and it spoke

1974
01:21:59,510 --> 01:21:57,600
to me telepathically and I Heard It In

1975
01:22:02,689 --> 01:21:59,520
My Head

1976
01:22:05,090 --> 01:22:02,699
and it said why are you screaming

1977
01:22:07,490 --> 01:22:05,100
stop screaming you know we don't hurt

1978
01:22:08,930 --> 01:22:07,500
you you know we take you back now stop

1979
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:08,940
screaming

1980
01:22:14,510 --> 01:22:10,800
and he reached over and tapped me on the

1981
01:22:16,250 --> 01:22:14,520
forehead with the green digit and

1982
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:16,260
I was out

1983
01:22:20,330 --> 01:22:17,520
I don't know why they couldn't have done

1984
01:22:21,350 --> 01:22:20,340
that to start with you know but but they

1985
01:22:24,250 --> 01:22:21,360
didn't

1986
01:22:27,830 --> 01:22:24,260
and then the final memory that I had was

1987
01:22:31,370 --> 01:22:27,840
uh I'm semi-conscious I'm aware that

1988
01:22:33,590 --> 01:22:31,380
Toby is to my side we're in the grass

1989
01:22:35,689 --> 01:22:33,600
we're in the field somewhere

1990
01:22:37,970 --> 01:22:35,699
and I had the thought they screwed up

1991
01:22:40,430 --> 01:22:37,980
they should have put us back in our tent

1992
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:40,440
and I no sooner had that thought than

1993
01:22:45,169 --> 01:22:42,480
little gray guys came and they picked us

1994
01:22:47,149 --> 01:22:45,179
up and I lost Consciousness again and

1995
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:47,159
they threw us back in the tent

1996
01:22:51,830 --> 01:22:50,159
and then my next memory from that was

1997
01:22:55,970 --> 01:22:51,840
waking up to the flashing lights and

1998
01:23:01,130 --> 01:22:58,850
so from this point the abduction

1999
01:23:02,450 --> 01:23:01,140
experience has ended

2000
01:23:04,610 --> 01:23:02,460
is it now

2001
01:23:06,950 --> 01:23:04,620
is it morning is a light coming up yet

2002
01:23:09,890 --> 01:23:06,960
and it's you and Toby awake

2003
01:23:13,250 --> 01:23:09,900
you know we both wore wind-up mechanical

2004
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:13,260
watches as EMTs we needed it to take a

2005
01:23:19,070 --> 01:23:16,560
pulse or uh you know measure

2006
01:23:23,810 --> 01:23:19,080
respirations it was kind of

2007
01:23:26,689 --> 01:23:23,820
um integral to the job uh and in 1977

2008
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:26,699
the Really Work battery operated watches

2009
01:23:31,550 --> 01:23:29,280
or very very many we had nice wind-up

2010
01:23:34,370 --> 01:23:31,560
mechanical watches uh but they were good

2011
01:23:37,189 --> 01:23:34,380
quality both of our watches had stopped

2012
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:37,199
at 240 you know two my own was at 240

2013
01:23:41,270 --> 01:23:39,120
his might have been 242 they stopped it

2014
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:41,280
within minutes of one another

2015
01:23:46,669 --> 01:23:43,920
those watches never worked again

2016
01:23:48,590 --> 01:23:46,679
so when we woke up it was dark outside

2017
01:23:51,649 --> 01:23:48,600
uh

2018
01:23:53,270 --> 01:23:51,659
we were able to figure out later on that

2019
01:23:55,970 --> 01:23:53,280
it was right before Dawn because it

2020
01:23:58,189 --> 01:23:55,980
wasn't that long that the sun came up

2021
01:24:00,890 --> 01:23:58,199
and uh

2022
01:24:02,689 --> 01:24:00,900
so we had no idea what time it was and

2023
01:24:04,310 --> 01:24:02,699
we were sitting in the tent like I say

2024
01:24:07,250 --> 01:24:04,320
we watched the little guys go into the

2025
01:24:08,630 --> 01:24:07,260
light we watched this thing take off

2026
01:24:10,490 --> 01:24:08,640
um again scared to death they're going

2027
01:24:12,770 --> 01:24:10,500
to come back

2028
01:24:14,330 --> 01:24:12,780
I was so terrified I didn't want to

2029
01:24:15,590 --> 01:24:14,340
leave the tent until it was fully

2030
01:24:18,110 --> 01:24:15,600
daylight

2031
01:24:20,450 --> 01:24:18,120
I mean all I had over my head was a

2032
01:24:21,729 --> 01:24:20,460
piece of canvas but I felt like it gave

2033
01:24:24,890 --> 01:24:21,739
me cover

2034
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,900
in a military sense it gave me I was

2035
01:24:29,209 --> 01:24:26,159
felt hidden

2036
01:24:31,610 --> 01:24:29,219
and uh I didn't want to be exposed I

2037
01:24:33,530 --> 01:24:31,620
think that's where that that that dread

2038
01:24:37,370 --> 01:24:33,540
that I have of being in Open Spaces I

2039
01:24:42,890 --> 01:24:40,010
my friend Toby's like no man let's go

2040
01:24:44,990 --> 01:24:42,900
now let's get out of here

2041
01:24:48,410 --> 01:24:45,000
and I acquiesced and said all right

2042
01:24:51,050 --> 01:24:48,420
let's go and I grabbed my car keys and

2043
01:24:53,930 --> 01:24:51,060
my wallet and he grabbed the flashlight

2044
01:24:55,490 --> 01:24:53,940
I think in his wallet and we darted from

2045
01:24:59,209 --> 01:24:55,500
my car

2046
01:25:01,490 --> 01:24:59,219
and it started right up we had to turn

2047
01:25:03,410 --> 01:25:01,500
the dome light on and

2048
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:03,420
we had to look all in the car we were

2049
01:25:08,510 --> 01:25:04,800
paranoid something might be waiting in

2050
01:25:10,490 --> 01:25:08,520
the car for us yeah and there wasn't of

2051
01:25:12,410 --> 01:25:10,500
course and we left and we left

2052
01:25:14,209 --> 01:25:12,420
everything there we left my friend's

2053
01:25:16,610 --> 01:25:14,219
backpack with all this stuff his camera

2054
01:25:20,149 --> 01:25:16,620
in it uh clothing I left my clothing

2055
01:25:22,070 --> 01:25:20,159
there uh you know the tent you know the

2056
01:25:25,550 --> 01:25:22,080
blow up air mattresses uh my friends

2057
01:25:27,470 --> 01:25:25,560
really nice Coleman cooler uh

2058
01:25:29,330 --> 01:25:27,480
we didn't care

2059
01:25:31,070 --> 01:25:29,340
we were just grateful to be out of there

2060
01:25:33,350 --> 01:25:31,080
with our lives

2061
01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:33,360
and uh and was there much conversation

2062
01:25:36,530 --> 01:25:34,800
between you at this point when you're in

2063
01:25:38,990 --> 01:25:36,540
the car beside each other

2064
01:25:41,390 --> 01:25:39,000
it's a great question because it's weird

2065
01:25:43,850 --> 01:25:41,400
uh what's weird is that there was

2066
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:43,860
minimal conversation

2067
01:25:48,410 --> 01:25:46,080
because I needed my friends to he had an

2068
01:25:49,870 --> 01:25:48,420
excellent unerring sense of direction I

2069
01:25:52,970 --> 01:25:49,880
had none

2070
01:25:56,270 --> 01:25:52,980
and he was able to guide us back to

2071
01:25:57,709 --> 01:25:56,280
blacktop and get us out of the park

2072
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:57,719
um in the dark

2073
01:26:01,310 --> 01:25:59,520
and I don't know how he did that but he

2074
01:26:03,530 --> 01:26:01,320
managed that all I could see on either

2075
01:26:04,729 --> 01:26:03,540
side of us were just trees but he knew

2076
01:26:06,890 --> 01:26:04,739
where to turn

2077
01:26:10,370 --> 01:26:06,900
and

2078
01:26:12,830 --> 01:26:10,380
we were both hurting the sun came up

2079
01:26:15,590 --> 01:26:12,840
shortly thereafter and we were very

2080
01:26:17,810 --> 01:26:15,600
photophobic we had those Burns to the

2081
01:26:20,930 --> 01:26:17,820
cornea of our eye I think from being

2082
01:26:23,450 --> 01:26:20,940
inside this thing and our her eyes hurt

2083
01:26:26,270 --> 01:26:23,460
and we had body aches all over we both

2084
01:26:30,290 --> 01:26:26,280
had we both had high fevers

2085
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:32,689
and we uh

2086
01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:35,040
we made a pact

2087
01:26:41,689 --> 01:26:37,800
we made an agreement where neither one

2088
01:26:44,330 --> 01:26:41,699
of us would tell anyone what we saw

2089
01:26:47,090 --> 01:26:44,340
you know uh we didn't want to lie we had

2090
01:26:49,010 --> 01:26:47,100
some ethics about us still do and we we

2091
01:26:51,950 --> 01:26:49,020
didn't want to lie so we said our story

2092
01:26:55,310 --> 01:26:51,960
would be truthful we went down there we

2093
01:26:57,470 --> 01:26:55,320
set up a campground we woke up we felt

2094
01:27:00,169 --> 01:26:57,480
sick which is true

2095
01:27:01,610 --> 01:27:00,179
we left we left everything there because

2096
01:27:04,129 --> 01:27:01,620
we didn't care

2097
01:27:06,530 --> 01:27:04,139
we felt ill and we just wanted to go

2098
01:27:13,310 --> 01:27:09,590
so that was the story that we told and

2099
01:27:17,510 --> 01:27:15,470
how do we then get to the point where

2100
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:17,520
the office of special investigation that

2101
01:27:23,750 --> 01:27:21,120
involved and again from there it's not

2102
01:27:26,209 --> 01:27:23,760
the most pleasant experience is it

2103
01:27:27,950 --> 01:27:26,219
you know that was uh I spent three

2104
01:27:30,649 --> 01:27:27,960
nights in the hospital and they they

2105
01:27:32,270 --> 01:27:30,659
separated us

2106
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:32,280
um you know Toby and I could have no

2107
01:27:37,010 --> 01:27:34,800
contact with one another

2108
01:27:39,470 --> 01:27:37,020
um there's a guy named Robert Hastings

2109
01:27:41,870 --> 01:27:39,480
who wrote a famous book called UFOs and

2110
01:27:44,510 --> 01:27:41,880
nukes yeah and uh Robert's a friend of

2111
01:27:46,910 --> 01:27:44,520
mine and uh he tells me that that's

2112
01:27:48,470 --> 01:27:46,920
absolutely common you know you have two

2113
01:27:50,990 --> 01:27:48,480
or three active duty military people

2114
01:27:52,189 --> 01:27:51,000
witness something they bust them up they

2115
01:27:53,990 --> 01:27:52,199
take them they send them to different

2116
01:27:55,669 --> 01:27:54,000
parts of the world they do everything

2117
01:27:57,169 --> 01:27:55,679
they can to make sure these guys don't

2118
01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:57,179
reconnect because

2119
01:28:03,110 --> 01:27:59,280
two people having the same experience

2120
01:28:06,790 --> 01:28:03,120
one bolsters the other and they didn't

2121
01:28:10,729 --> 01:28:08,930
what sort of questions are you being

2122
01:28:13,310 --> 01:28:10,739
asked you're both in the hospital you're

2123
01:28:14,990 --> 01:28:13,320
under observation what's happening what

2124
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:15,000
why are you being asked questions in the

2125
01:28:19,970 --> 01:28:18,000
first place yes the OSI there were two

2126
01:28:22,669 --> 01:28:19,980
OSI agents

2127
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:22,679
um it was my last evening there

2128
01:28:26,270 --> 01:28:24,480
and a nurse had come in to give me an

2129
01:28:28,250 --> 01:28:26,280
injection for sleep

2130
01:28:30,830 --> 01:28:28,260
and they had they kept the lights turned

2131
01:28:33,050 --> 01:28:30,840
off because my eyes were so photophobic

2132
01:28:35,689 --> 01:28:33,060
and these two guys followed the nurse in

2133
01:28:37,729 --> 01:28:35,699
and

2134
01:28:39,590 --> 01:28:37,739
I don't want to stereotype people I have

2135
01:28:41,470 --> 01:28:39,600
respect for law enforcement as a former

2136
01:28:44,750 --> 01:28:41,480
prosecutor I worked with law enforcement

2137
01:28:46,550 --> 01:28:44,760
uh but these guys were cops I mean you

2138
01:28:48,770 --> 01:28:46,560
could just tell they were cops they The

2139
01:28:51,470 --> 01:28:48,780
Way They Carried themselves

2140
01:28:54,649 --> 01:28:51,480
um you know they had the they wore blue

2141
01:28:55,970 --> 01:28:54,659
suits they had their uh suit coats

2142
01:28:58,070 --> 01:28:55,980
unbuttoned and you could see the

2143
01:29:01,070 --> 01:28:58,080
shoulder holster with a weapon

2144
01:29:04,010 --> 01:29:01,080
and um one was about 50 years of age one

2145
01:29:07,189 --> 01:29:04,020
was about 30. and they came in and just

2146
01:29:09,050 --> 01:29:07,199
intimidated me to no end

2147
01:29:11,689 --> 01:29:09,060
and um

2148
01:29:16,250 --> 01:29:11,699
the one guy had a Southern accent

2149
01:29:19,729 --> 01:29:16,260
um much like Calvin Parker and uh he he

2150
01:29:22,250 --> 01:29:19,739
said he wanted to know he said the park

2151
01:29:24,290 --> 01:29:22,260
rangers found your little campsite

2152
01:29:25,669 --> 01:29:24,300
and it looks like you boys were set up

2153
01:29:28,729 --> 01:29:25,679
to go back

2154
01:29:30,830 --> 01:29:28,739
uh what were you doing down there

2155
01:29:32,810 --> 01:29:30,840
I said sir we just went down there we

2156
01:29:34,490 --> 01:29:32,820
went camping and we got we woke up we

2157
01:29:36,169 --> 01:29:34,500
were sick and we came home

2158
01:29:38,270 --> 01:29:36,179
and he says then you left all your stuff

2159
01:29:40,610 --> 01:29:38,280
I said yes sir that's right we left all

2160
01:29:42,110 --> 01:29:40,620
our stuff we didn't care about it

2161
01:29:43,490 --> 01:29:42,120
and he says you know what I think he

2162
01:29:45,290 --> 01:29:43,500
says I think you boys might have a

2163
01:29:48,110 --> 01:29:45,300
little marijuana plot growing down there

2164
01:29:50,450 --> 01:29:48,120
is that what this is all about uh you

2165
01:29:53,270 --> 01:29:50,460
know that's kind of comical today but I

2166
01:29:55,189 --> 01:29:53,280
got to tell you 1977 to be on active

2167
01:29:58,010 --> 01:29:55,199
duty that would have been a dishonorable

2168
01:30:00,649 --> 01:29:58,020
discharge uh and and probably some jail

2169
01:30:04,310 --> 01:30:00,659
time and Leavenworth penitentiary uh

2170
01:30:09,290 --> 01:30:06,290
um so that that that scared me they had

2171
01:30:10,610 --> 01:30:09,300
me thoroughly intimidated

2172
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:10,620
um

2173
01:30:16,669 --> 01:30:14,639
and uh they kind of offhand asked did

2174
01:30:17,629 --> 01:30:16,679
you see anything unusual when he was

2175
01:30:20,870 --> 01:30:17,639
down there

2176
01:30:23,930 --> 01:30:20,880
no sir no sir

2177
01:30:27,729 --> 01:30:23,940
um then I had a second interaction with

2178
01:30:31,250 --> 01:30:27,739
the OSI and that happened uh

2179
01:30:33,290 --> 01:30:31,260
six maybe eight weeks afterward Toby had

2180
01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:33,300
already PCS he'd over he'd already been

2181
01:30:38,090 --> 01:30:35,940
shipped out to Japan

2182
01:30:39,950 --> 01:30:38,100
and they called they summoned me to the

2183
01:30:42,110 --> 01:30:39,960
OSI headquarters

2184
01:30:46,430 --> 01:30:42,120
and they took me into an interrogation

2185
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:46,440
room and they um they hypnotized me and

2186
01:30:49,790 --> 01:30:47,760
they gave me a drug

2187
01:30:53,229 --> 01:30:49,800
the drug they gave me was called sodium

2188
01:30:56,090 --> 01:30:53,239
amitol it's a short-acting hypnotic

2189
01:30:58,790 --> 01:30:56,100
OSI used it on hundreds of people back

2190
01:31:02,510 --> 01:30:58,800
in the 60s and 70s

2191
01:31:05,810 --> 01:31:02,520
and it's like sodium penitol it'll um

2192
01:31:08,629 --> 01:31:05,820
they'll put you in a weird place

2193
01:31:13,070 --> 01:31:08,639
now I knew that I couldn't be hypnotized

2194
01:31:15,110 --> 01:31:13,080
against my will I felt confident of that

2195
01:31:17,629 --> 01:31:15,120
so but I also knew that they wouldn't

2196
01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:17,639
allow me to resist so I covertly

2197
01:31:23,390 --> 01:31:19,920
resisted the hypnosis

2198
01:31:26,870 --> 01:31:23,400
by uh he did the progress the hypnotist

2199
01:31:29,450 --> 01:31:26,880
did the hip the the typical uh

2200
01:31:31,070 --> 01:31:29,460
regression thing where you know you're

2201
01:31:33,050 --> 01:31:31,080
gonna we're gonna go down a flight of

2202
01:31:34,669 --> 01:31:33,060
stairs now take that first step and he

2203
01:31:37,189 --> 01:31:34,679
had that voice like that real smooth

2204
01:31:40,070 --> 01:31:37,199
voice you know take that first step

2205
01:31:42,590 --> 01:31:40,080
feeling calm feeling relaxed relaxed and

2206
01:31:44,629 --> 01:31:42,600
calm take the second step now twice as

2207
01:31:47,450 --> 01:31:44,639
relaxed and it takes you through this

2208
01:31:50,510 --> 01:31:47,460
Progressive relaxation thing

2209
01:31:54,590 --> 01:31:50,520
and I tried to do the opposite I tried

2210
01:31:57,649 --> 01:31:54,600
to covertly tense my muscles uh rather

2211
01:31:59,090 --> 01:31:57,659
than focus on his questions I tried to

2212
01:32:00,950 --> 01:31:59,100
uh

2213
01:32:03,649 --> 01:32:00,960
give him no more than half of my

2214
01:32:06,530 --> 01:32:03,659
unconscious mind and in the other half I

2215
01:32:09,410 --> 01:32:06,540
was playing you know Beetle music uh

2216
01:32:11,330 --> 01:32:09,420
lyrics to Rolling Stones I would do a

2217
01:32:13,310 --> 01:32:11,340
multiplication tables I was doing

2218
01:32:14,689 --> 01:32:13,320
everything that I could think of in my

2219
01:32:21,709 --> 01:32:14,699
mind

2220
01:32:25,910 --> 01:32:21,719
uh but the drug I had no I had no uh

2221
01:32:30,470 --> 01:32:28,189
I take it you gave them all the

2222
01:32:32,149 --> 01:32:30,480
information at that point because of the

2223
01:32:35,330 --> 01:32:32,159
drug anything they asked you you would

2224
01:32:37,370 --> 01:32:35,340
have spilled the beans as such they did

2225
01:32:40,010 --> 01:32:37,380
and I

2226
01:32:43,430 --> 01:32:40,020
I have more memories of what happened to

2227
01:32:45,169 --> 01:32:43,440
me today because of that you know I say

2228
01:32:49,129 --> 01:32:45,179
that I had these Snippets well this

2229
01:32:50,930 --> 01:32:49,139
brought back more detail more more Vivid

2230
01:32:53,390 --> 01:32:50,940
color I could see these things in my

2231
01:32:56,530 --> 01:32:53,400
mind's eye in my head uh and actually

2232
01:33:00,470 --> 01:32:56,540
reliving it like the memory that it was

2233
01:33:01,970 --> 01:33:00,480
I could see things in much better detail

2234
01:33:03,770 --> 01:33:01,980
why would they ask any of these

2235
01:33:06,350 --> 01:33:03,780
questions to what end was it just to

2236
01:33:08,390 --> 01:33:06,360
find out exactly what happened they

2237
01:33:11,209 --> 01:33:08,400
clearly had an idea that something

2238
01:33:14,330 --> 01:33:11,219
otherworldly had happened to you

2239
01:33:16,970 --> 01:33:14,340
why what was their end game

2240
01:33:19,070 --> 01:33:16,980
I had a reputation as a as an amateur

2241
01:33:21,169 --> 01:33:19,080
photographer

2242
01:33:22,250 --> 01:33:21,179
and I had a little dark room set up in

2243
01:33:25,250 --> 01:33:22,260
my house

2244
01:33:27,350 --> 01:33:25,260
and uh if you know anybody

2245
01:33:29,390 --> 01:33:27,360
who has the hobby of Photography you

2246
01:33:30,770 --> 01:33:29,400
know how irritating they can be because

2247
01:33:32,330 --> 01:33:30,780
they always have a camera and they're

2248
01:33:33,410 --> 01:33:32,340
always taking pictures of stuff and I

2249
01:33:35,209 --> 01:33:33,420
was that guy

2250
01:33:36,830 --> 01:33:35,219
so I had a reputation of being a

2251
01:33:39,530 --> 01:33:36,840
photographer

2252
01:33:40,610 --> 01:33:39,540
the whole purpose of this exercise I

2253
01:33:43,729 --> 01:33:40,620
believe

2254
01:33:45,229 --> 01:33:43,739
I think they knew exactly what I saw I I

2255
01:33:47,270 --> 01:33:45,239
don't think for a minute that that was

2256
01:33:50,629 --> 01:33:47,280
that they were surprised by that at all

2257
01:33:52,610 --> 01:33:50,639
I think that that was just routine

2258
01:33:55,070 --> 01:33:52,620
the purpose of this exercise was to

2259
01:33:56,750 --> 01:33:55,080
determine did I have a 36 exposure roll

2260
01:33:58,250 --> 01:33:56,760
of film

2261
01:34:02,030 --> 01:33:58,260
of this thing

2262
01:34:04,250 --> 01:34:02,040
I wish I had God I wish I had

2263
01:34:06,830 --> 01:34:04,260
but you know and again speaks to the

2264
01:34:08,390 --> 01:34:06,840
power of these things their control over

2265
01:34:11,270 --> 01:34:08,400
us

2266
01:34:13,189 --> 01:34:11,280
as much as I love photography

2267
01:34:14,750 --> 01:34:13,199
through the entire process the thought

2268
01:34:16,790 --> 01:34:14,760
of picking up a camera

2269
01:34:18,229 --> 01:34:16,800
and taking a photograph never crossed my

2270
01:34:21,110 --> 01:34:18,239
mind

2271
01:34:23,330 --> 01:34:21,120
I actually left my camera at home but

2272
01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:23,340
Toby brought his Toby brought his camera

2273
01:34:28,250 --> 01:34:25,920
and it was in a backpack not a foot away

2274
01:34:30,410 --> 01:34:28,260
from where he was lying he could have

2275
01:34:31,970 --> 01:34:30,420
picked that up anytime and and taken

2276
01:34:33,169 --> 01:34:31,980
pictures of this thing neither one of us

2277
01:34:34,669 --> 01:34:33,179
thought of it

2278
01:34:36,890 --> 01:34:34,679
and I've heard that from other people

2279
01:34:38,209 --> 01:34:36,900
say you know I had my phone in my pocket

2280
01:34:41,209 --> 01:34:38,219
I could have taken a picture of this and

2281
01:34:43,850 --> 01:34:41,219
it never crossed my mind yeah

2282
01:34:45,649 --> 01:34:43,860
so that that I think was the object of

2283
01:34:49,010 --> 01:34:45,659
the exercise to make sure I didn't have

2284
01:34:53,149 --> 01:34:50,990
so there was no proof no evidence left

2285
01:34:55,070 --> 01:34:53,159
over afterwards that it was very much an

2286
01:34:57,110 --> 01:34:55,080
experience that you had with with your

2287
01:34:59,689 --> 01:34:57,120
friend and I'll just say give my friend

2288
01:35:01,310 --> 01:34:59,699
a mention Gareth scorer he's a

2289
01:35:04,070 --> 01:35:01,320
photographer so if anyone's looking for

2290
01:35:05,689 --> 01:35:04,080
a photographer in the in the UK he is

2291
01:35:07,430 --> 01:35:05,699
that guy that's always got the camera on

2292
01:35:09,530 --> 01:35:07,440
him so maybe one day he'll have that

2293
01:35:11,510 --> 01:35:09,540
experience or sighting and have that

2294
01:35:14,390 --> 01:35:11,520
very very good expensive camera with a

2295
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:14,400
nice lens to take a picture of it

2296
01:35:18,770 --> 01:35:17,280
um how did this then have an impact on

2297
01:35:20,990 --> 01:35:18,780
your life where we're at that point

2298
01:35:23,750 --> 01:35:21,000
eight weeks out from the incident you

2299
01:35:26,270 --> 01:35:23,760
mentioned Toby's been shipped away to

2300
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:26,280
Japan your relationship with him sort of

2301
01:35:32,209 --> 01:35:28,400
ended after that experience didn't it it

2302
01:35:36,530 --> 01:35:32,219
changed things for you and then how did

2303
01:35:41,330 --> 01:35:38,209
um real quick let me go through the last

2304
01:35:43,550 --> 01:35:41,340
time I saw Toby and that was

2305
01:35:46,250 --> 01:35:43,560
um we had a no contact order but we both

2306
01:35:48,709 --> 01:35:46,260
lived in NCO housing on the base

2307
01:35:52,250 --> 01:35:48,719
and uh

2308
01:35:54,590 --> 01:35:52,260
I really didn't want to talk to the guy

2309
01:35:56,930 --> 01:35:54,600
but I felt like I owed him

2310
01:35:58,850 --> 01:35:56,940
goodbye best wishes nice working with

2311
01:36:00,550 --> 01:35:58,860
you shake his hand I felt like I owed

2312
01:36:02,810 --> 01:36:00,560
him that for some reason

2313
01:36:04,370 --> 01:36:02,820
and I also in the back of my mind

2314
01:36:06,530 --> 01:36:04,380
thought you know if I could just see

2315
01:36:08,330 --> 01:36:06,540
Toby again

2316
01:36:10,669 --> 01:36:08,340
have a couple words with them maybe we

2317
01:36:12,649 --> 01:36:10,679
maybe I could put this to bed in my mind

2318
01:36:14,270 --> 01:36:12,659
maybe I could come away from this

2319
01:36:15,890 --> 01:36:14,280
feeling better maybe it would help me

2320
01:36:18,470 --> 01:36:15,900
heal

2321
01:36:22,070 --> 01:36:18,480
um because I came I came away from this

2322
01:36:23,810 --> 01:36:22,080
fractured on on many levels and so did

2323
01:36:26,930 --> 01:36:23,820
my friend

2324
01:36:29,390 --> 01:36:26,940
so I stopped by his house

2325
01:36:31,010 --> 01:36:29,400
I went up to this door same door had

2326
01:36:33,590 --> 01:36:31,020
been through a hundred times knocked on

2327
01:36:35,930 --> 01:36:33,600
it like I always did open the door and

2328
01:36:37,790 --> 01:36:35,940
say hey guys it's me

2329
01:36:38,810 --> 01:36:37,800
um I saw his wife first they were

2330
01:36:40,970 --> 01:36:38,820
packing

2331
01:36:43,070 --> 01:36:40,980
and she was rude she said you're not

2332
01:36:45,169 --> 01:36:43,080
supposed to be here

2333
01:36:46,669 --> 01:36:45,179
and I said I know I'm just here I just

2334
01:36:47,629 --> 01:36:46,679
want to say goodbye to you guys wish you

2335
01:36:49,729 --> 01:36:47,639
well

2336
01:36:52,070 --> 01:36:49,739
Toby must have heard me because he came

2337
01:36:54,229 --> 01:36:52,080
walking around a corner from the bedroom

2338
01:36:56,810 --> 01:36:54,239
to a long hallway that read to the

2339
01:36:59,990 --> 01:36:56,820
vestibule of their house

2340
01:37:01,610 --> 01:37:00,000
and Toby was just he was one of these

2341
01:37:03,470 --> 01:37:01,620
guys he was real meticulous about his

2342
01:37:05,750 --> 01:37:03,480
appearance I mean he always had a good

2343
01:37:07,490 --> 01:37:05,760
haircut he always had nice clothing he

2344
01:37:08,810 --> 01:37:07,500
you know he always looked good even if

2345
01:37:10,729 --> 01:37:08,820
you're just playing volleyball or

2346
01:37:12,890 --> 01:37:10,739
something he always you know kept a good

2347
01:37:14,450 --> 01:37:12,900
appearance and he walked around the

2348
01:37:16,550 --> 01:37:14,460
corner and I mean I cut up some slack he

2349
01:37:19,370 --> 01:37:16,560
was in the middle of moving

2350
01:37:22,070 --> 01:37:19,380
um but he looked like hell he just

2351
01:37:25,129 --> 01:37:22,080
his hair was all wonky and he hadn't

2352
01:37:27,530 --> 01:37:25,139
shaved and he was wearing a dirty

2353
01:37:30,350 --> 01:37:27,540
t-shirt and jeans he was barefoot and I

2354
01:37:33,709 --> 01:37:30,360
just never had seen him like that

2355
01:37:35,570 --> 01:37:33,719
and he kind of walked up to make subdued

2356
01:37:38,450 --> 01:37:35,580
and uh

2357
01:37:41,629 --> 01:37:38,460
we're about two feet apart

2358
01:37:43,370 --> 01:37:41,639
and I it was awkward I held my hand out

2359
01:37:45,770 --> 01:37:43,380
to shake his hand and we missed each

2360
01:37:48,229 --> 01:37:45,780
other and then managed this awkward

2361
01:37:50,930 --> 01:37:48,239
handshake

2362
01:37:52,490 --> 01:37:50,940
and I said hell hey man I just uh want

2363
01:37:54,890 --> 01:37:52,500
to wish her well I know you're going to

2364
01:37:55,810 --> 01:37:54,900
Japan I just uh appreciate working with

2365
01:37:58,970 --> 01:37:55,820
you

2366
01:38:01,610 --> 01:37:58,980
and that was about all I said

2367
01:38:05,450 --> 01:38:01,620
he um

2368
01:38:07,850 --> 01:38:05,460
I'm six foot even he's about five eight

2369
01:38:12,590 --> 01:38:07,860
and he looked up at me

2370
01:38:14,450 --> 01:38:12,600
and he said it happened didn't it Terry

2371
01:38:17,990 --> 01:38:14,460
and I said yes my brother it happened

2372
01:38:22,610 --> 01:38:18,000
you're not losing your mind it happened

2373
01:38:26,990 --> 01:38:22,620
and he said yeah but why us

2374
01:38:30,830 --> 01:38:27,000
and I said man I don't I don't have a

2375
01:38:33,050 --> 01:38:30,840
expletive I don't have a clue

2376
01:38:37,010 --> 01:38:33,060
and I ran out of there

2377
01:38:40,010 --> 01:38:37,020
ran back to the car and went home and uh

2378
01:38:42,229 --> 01:38:40,020
while I hope to get some peace by

2379
01:38:44,570 --> 01:38:42,239
shaking his hand and telling him goodbye

2380
01:38:48,169 --> 01:38:44,580
I I didn't get that at all it was quite

2381
01:38:49,490 --> 01:38:48,179
the opposite it was anxiety

2382
01:38:51,290 --> 01:38:49,500
so

2383
01:38:53,810 --> 01:38:51,300
that was uh

2384
01:38:56,330 --> 01:38:53,820
uh and we were we were good friends but

2385
01:38:58,669 --> 01:38:56,340
I was I was glad to see him go

2386
01:39:00,290 --> 01:38:58,679
and I don't I don't I don't know how to

2387
01:39:02,209 --> 01:39:00,300
process that I have trouble with that

2388
01:39:05,149 --> 01:39:02,219
today but that was that was my feeling

2389
01:39:07,310 --> 01:39:05,159
that was the emotions that I experienced

2390
01:39:09,649 --> 01:39:07,320
do you feel that separation from you

2391
01:39:11,450 --> 01:39:09,659
both was going to help you potentially

2392
01:39:14,090 --> 01:39:11,460
move on from the incident did you want

2393
01:39:17,629 --> 01:39:14,100
to forget it move past it and just get

2394
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:19,310
I don't think it was again I don't think

2395
01:39:26,689 --> 01:39:24,770
um

2396
01:39:29,270 --> 01:39:26,699
I don't think that they wanted us

2397
01:39:31,490 --> 01:39:29,280
together to bolster each other's story

2398
01:39:33,470 --> 01:39:31,500
and have that conversation did you see

2399
01:39:35,510 --> 01:39:33,480
what I saw yeah well let's draw it let's

2400
01:39:37,490 --> 01:39:35,520
compare drawings let's see

2401
01:39:38,510 --> 01:39:37,500
I don't think they they wanted that to

2402
01:39:41,450 --> 01:39:38,520
happen

2403
01:39:43,310 --> 01:39:41,460
and uh you know I have I mean I have a

2404
01:39:46,010 --> 01:39:43,320
theory these things either work arm and

2405
01:39:48,229 --> 01:39:46,020
arm with our Armed Forces

2406
01:39:50,990 --> 01:39:48,239
which I think is highly likely

2407
01:39:53,890 --> 01:39:51,000
work together towards some shared goal

2408
01:39:57,649 --> 01:39:53,900
or maybe these things just come and go

2409
01:40:00,050 --> 01:39:57,659
and our government can't do a move

2410
01:40:02,709 --> 01:40:00,060
anything about it and they take people

2411
01:40:05,209 --> 01:40:02,719
and they take cattle and do as they will

2412
01:40:08,810 --> 01:40:05,219
and uh

2413
01:40:10,790 --> 01:40:08,820
that's just the way it is

2414
01:40:13,850 --> 01:40:10,800
one of the one of those two I think is

2415
01:40:16,010 --> 01:40:13,860
is the truth but I don't know which one

2416
01:40:17,229 --> 01:40:16,020
as we start to get towards more modern

2417
01:40:20,930 --> 01:40:17,239
day

2418
01:40:23,990 --> 01:40:20,940
you you wait until 2018 to write the

2419
01:40:26,930 --> 01:40:24,000
book what what happened at that point

2420
01:40:30,229 --> 01:40:26,940
that for you it was time to put down the

2421
01:40:34,010 --> 01:40:30,239
story oh I in 2012

2422
01:40:36,590 --> 01:40:34,020
I retired early I retired in 2012 and

2423
01:40:39,410 --> 01:40:36,600
moved to Dallas we got kids grandkids

2424
01:40:41,570 --> 01:40:39,420
here and uh got up one morning I

2425
01:40:44,930 --> 01:40:41,580
couldn't bear weight on my right knee

2426
01:40:46,310 --> 01:40:44,940
and uh I went to the VA hospital I get

2427
01:40:47,629 --> 01:40:46,320
all my medical care for the veterans

2428
01:40:51,229 --> 01:40:47,639
administration

2429
01:40:54,110 --> 01:40:51,239
and they x-rayed my knee

2430
01:40:56,209 --> 01:40:54,120
and when they did they found a foreign

2431
01:40:58,910 --> 01:40:56,219
object in my name

2432
01:41:00,950 --> 01:40:58,920
there's an object a square object about

2433
01:41:02,629 --> 01:41:00,960
the size of a fingernail with two wires

2434
01:41:05,750 --> 01:41:02,639
attached

2435
01:41:07,910 --> 01:41:05,760
uh that's above my right knee and then

2436
01:41:11,750 --> 01:41:07,920
below my right knee in my calf muscle

2437
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:11,760
was a collection of bones in a floret

2438
01:41:21,530 --> 01:41:19,550
and the radiologist had no idea what

2439
01:41:23,570 --> 01:41:21,540
those were

2440
01:41:25,310 --> 01:41:23,580
and uh

2441
01:41:27,830 --> 01:41:25,320
he said you know you had to be in some

2442
01:41:29,510 --> 01:41:27,840
kind of accident you know you can to get

2443
01:41:30,830 --> 01:41:29,520
this for an object above your knee I

2444
01:41:33,410 --> 01:41:30,840
don't know how that got into your body

2445
01:41:34,850 --> 01:41:33,420
there has to be a scar and we got into

2446
01:41:36,350 --> 01:41:34,860
this back and forth because I told him

2447
01:41:38,390 --> 01:41:36,360
doctor I don't have a scar I've never

2448
01:41:41,629 --> 01:41:38,400
injured that knee other than skinny as a

2449
01:41:45,950 --> 01:41:41,639
kid and he examined my knee and there is

2450
01:41:49,669 --> 01:41:45,960
no Scar and he looked

2451
01:41:51,410 --> 01:41:49,679
confounded he looked stunned and I said

2452
01:41:53,570 --> 01:41:51,420
well doctor let me ask you how often is

2453
01:41:55,070 --> 01:41:53,580
it that you see someone with a foreign

2454
01:41:58,070 --> 01:41:55,080
object like this in their body and

2455
01:41:59,689 --> 01:41:58,080
they're not b a corresponding scar

2456
01:42:02,149 --> 01:41:59,699
it's never he said I've been a

2457
01:42:04,010 --> 01:42:02,159
radiologist for 23 years he says I have

2458
01:42:06,590 --> 01:42:04,020
no idea how this thing got into your

2459
01:42:10,010 --> 01:42:08,030
so

2460
01:42:11,870 --> 01:42:10,020
I asked him to show me the x-rays he

2461
01:42:16,370 --> 01:42:11,880
showed me the x-rays

2462
01:42:19,490 --> 01:42:16,380
and I was just absolutely devastated

2463
01:42:22,430 --> 01:42:19,500
um because I was trying to I thought

2464
01:42:26,209 --> 01:42:22,440
that I had lived this all out

2465
01:42:26,870 --> 01:42:26,219
and it was for the most part over with

2466
01:42:28,669 --> 01:42:26,880
um

2467
01:42:30,109 --> 01:42:28,679
I had no intentions of telling anybody

2468
01:42:32,270 --> 01:42:30,119
anything

2469
01:42:34,550 --> 01:42:32,280
but seeing these things just validated

2470
01:42:38,030 --> 01:42:34,560
that they put their hands on me these

2471
01:42:39,770 --> 01:42:38,040
things put their hands on me uh that it

2472
01:42:41,510 --> 01:42:39,780
wasn't just a sighting I just didn't

2473
01:42:42,830 --> 01:42:41,520
just see a flying saucer there was

2474
01:42:44,209 --> 01:42:42,840
something more intimate to this

2475
01:42:46,790 --> 01:42:44,219
encounter

2476
01:42:48,229 --> 01:42:46,800
and uh

2477
01:42:58,070 --> 01:42:48,239
I

2478
01:43:00,229 --> 01:42:58,080
to tell people what happened to me

2479
01:43:02,629 --> 01:43:00,239
and I I couldn't do that if I were

2480
01:43:05,450 --> 01:43:02,639
working for the government I mean and my

2481
01:43:07,370 --> 01:43:05,460
peers in the legal community

2482
01:43:09,169 --> 01:43:07,380
you know it was interesting a couple of

2483
01:43:10,669 --> 01:43:09,179
them were supportive of me

2484
01:43:12,590 --> 01:43:10,679
you know I believe you you know you're

2485
01:43:14,990 --> 01:43:12,600
not the kind of guy to tell

2486
01:43:18,410 --> 01:43:15,000
tail

2487
01:43:19,910 --> 01:43:18,420
but I had a lot of my friends emailed me

2488
01:43:21,530 --> 01:43:19,920
like what is wrong with you have you

2489
01:43:23,510 --> 01:43:21,540
lost your mind

2490
01:43:25,550 --> 01:43:23,520
if this really happened to you why would

2491
01:43:27,410 --> 01:43:25,560
you come out and say such a thing you

2492
01:43:30,709 --> 01:43:27,420
know people think you're crazy blah blah

2493
01:43:33,709 --> 01:43:30,719
blah well you know so be it you know

2494
01:43:36,229 --> 01:43:33,719
Find Out Who Your Friends really are

2495
01:43:38,330 --> 01:43:36,239
uh but I'm glad I came forward I I'm

2496
01:43:41,209 --> 01:43:38,340
shocked that

2497
01:43:42,890 --> 01:43:41,219
I expected to sell a hundred books you

2498
01:43:45,109 --> 01:43:42,900
know and have a box of 50 in my garage

2499
01:43:47,689 --> 01:43:45,119
or something I expected it to be a

2500
01:43:50,629 --> 01:43:47,699
cathartic experience which it was

2501
01:43:53,570 --> 01:43:50,639
what I didn't expect was to sell tens of

2502
01:43:55,790 --> 01:43:53,580
thousands of copies in 13 countries and

2503
01:43:57,530 --> 01:43:55,800
had all of these people email me

2504
01:43:59,870 --> 01:43:57,540
uh

2505
01:44:01,370 --> 01:43:59,880
with these stories and you know pour

2506
01:44:03,229 --> 01:44:01,380
their heart out to me and say I've never

2507
01:44:05,270 --> 01:44:03,239
told this to another human being and

2508
01:44:08,149 --> 01:44:05,280
they tell me their story

2509
01:44:10,609 --> 01:44:08,159
and uh that's a privilege

2510
01:44:12,590 --> 01:44:10,619
to have people share that with you

2511
01:44:15,109 --> 01:44:12,600
so and

2512
01:44:17,149 --> 01:44:15,119
this was all unacceptable

2513
01:44:19,729 --> 01:44:17,159
I think for many people

2514
01:44:21,530 --> 01:44:19,739
you're one of those ten thousand aren't

2515
01:44:23,270 --> 01:44:21,540
you because they've had a similar

2516
01:44:26,390 --> 01:44:23,280
experience to you

2517
01:44:28,790 --> 01:44:26,400
uh unique to them but they've not had

2518
01:44:30,350 --> 01:44:28,800
the time the ability the capability or

2519
01:44:32,270 --> 01:44:30,360
the will to write it down and you've

2520
01:44:34,250 --> 01:44:32,280
done that for them and I think when they

2521
01:44:36,169 --> 01:44:34,260
see those words on paper that resonates

2522
01:44:37,609 --> 01:44:36,179
with them people like Whitley strieber

2523
01:44:40,250 --> 01:44:37,619
when they come out and tell their story

2524
01:44:41,870 --> 01:44:40,260
when far less well-known people like

2525
01:44:43,970 --> 01:44:41,880
members of the experience or group

2526
01:44:45,830 --> 01:44:43,980
shared our story it resonates with a lot

2527
01:44:47,689 --> 01:44:45,840
of people there are many people who on

2528
01:44:50,930 --> 01:44:47,699
this podcast I try and cover the ranger

2529
01:44:52,729 --> 01:44:50,940
UFOs the UFO topic some people are very

2530
01:44:54,890 --> 01:44:52,739
nuts and bolts and don't really have an

2531
01:44:56,649 --> 01:44:54,900
interest in the abduction phenomena and

2532
01:44:59,030 --> 01:44:56,659
we'll still say well they believe in

2533
01:45:01,850 --> 01:44:59,040
extraterrestrials or or whatever that

2534
01:45:05,510 --> 01:45:01,860
may entail the abduction experience is

2535
01:45:07,370 --> 01:45:05,520
largely made up yeah there are less huge

2536
01:45:09,770 --> 01:45:07,380
number of people it's not a minority

2537
01:45:11,390 --> 01:45:09,780
it's a big number who claim that it's

2538
01:45:13,609 --> 01:45:11,400
very real and not only that but it's

2539
01:45:15,470 --> 01:45:13,619
happened to them as well so I think it

2540
01:45:17,450 --> 01:45:15,480
means a lot when people say something

2541
01:45:19,629 --> 01:45:17,460
like yours and it resonates with them it

2542
01:45:22,729 --> 01:45:19,639
picks up and it takes a life of its own

2543
01:45:25,010 --> 01:45:22,739
and has that helped you since the book

2544
01:45:27,590 --> 01:45:25,020
was published deal with the incident

2545
01:45:29,810 --> 01:45:27,600
better knowing there are so many more

2546
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:29,820
folks like you out there oh it's

2547
01:45:34,669 --> 01:45:31,920
unbelievably helpful and you know what I

2548
01:45:38,510 --> 01:45:34,679
did is I I wrote a second book

2549
01:45:41,149 --> 01:45:38,520
uh called the Reckoning and uh

2550
01:45:43,850 --> 01:45:41,159
I had all of these stories I I boiled

2551
01:45:44,990 --> 01:45:43,860
them down to about 400 that were just

2552
01:45:48,649 --> 01:45:45,000
credible

2553
01:45:49,790 --> 01:45:48,659
stories from people that uh uh I felt

2554
01:45:52,790 --> 01:45:49,800
were truthful

2555
01:45:54,410 --> 01:45:52,800
and uh I chose 25 of what I thought were

2556
01:45:55,910 --> 01:45:54,420
the best stories and I put them in the

2557
01:45:58,189 --> 01:45:55,920
book

2558
01:46:00,890 --> 01:45:58,199
um some some has to be anonymous some

2559
01:46:03,590 --> 01:46:00,900
said use my name I don't care

2560
01:46:05,990 --> 01:46:03,600
um but there are some incredible stories

2561
01:46:07,490 --> 01:46:06,000
out there because uh the stuff is

2562
01:46:09,169 --> 01:46:07,500
happening and it's happening more than

2563
01:46:11,149 --> 01:46:09,179
we know

2564
01:46:14,209 --> 01:46:11,159
because I think a lot of people don't

2565
01:46:16,250 --> 01:46:14,219
remember can't remember uh maybe have no

2566
01:46:18,169 --> 01:46:16,260
recall of it until they're in their 60s

2567
01:46:20,810 --> 01:46:18,179
and then suddenly it's like boom

2568
01:46:22,669 --> 01:46:20,820
something snaps and like oh yeah that

2569
01:46:25,430 --> 01:46:22,679
camping trip I remember

2570
01:46:28,129 --> 01:46:25,440
I think that that happens

2571
01:46:29,689 --> 01:46:28,139
so one of the people you were connected

2572
01:46:31,850 --> 01:46:29,699
with in the last few years was Tom

2573
01:46:34,189 --> 01:46:31,860
Delong am I correct on that one

2574
01:46:37,250 --> 01:46:34,199
yes

2575
01:46:38,270 --> 01:46:37,260
Elizondo Jim cinnaman

2576
01:46:41,169 --> 01:46:38,280
um

2577
01:46:44,750 --> 01:46:41,179
the whole crew from to the Stars Academy

2578
01:46:47,629 --> 01:46:44,760
my book had been published for 60 days

2579
01:46:49,310 --> 01:46:47,639
and I got a call from Tom DeLonge and

2580
01:46:52,070 --> 01:46:49,320
I'm embarrassed to say I I didn't know

2581
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:52,080
who he was I answered the phone and he

2582
01:46:56,510 --> 01:46:54,719
said hi Terry it's time to learn you

2583
01:46:58,850 --> 01:46:56,520
know like you know I saw my phone had

2584
01:46:59,629 --> 01:46:58,860
said LA and I got friends in L.A and I'm

2585
01:47:02,810 --> 01:46:59,639
like

2586
01:47:04,609 --> 01:47:02,820
well how you doing Tom and uh

2587
01:47:07,669 --> 01:47:04,619
and he said um

2588
01:47:09,649 --> 01:47:07,679
yeah I got uh some people here with me

2589
01:47:12,530 --> 01:47:09,659
and uh Lou Elizondo and we'd like to

2590
01:47:17,270 --> 01:47:12,540
talk to you about your book

2591
01:47:19,790 --> 01:47:17,280
um and they were very kind to me and um

2592
01:47:23,090 --> 01:47:19,800
Lu Elizondo came and spent two days in

2593
01:47:28,790 --> 01:47:26,209
talking about this and there was another

2594
01:47:31,070 --> 01:47:28,800
member of their team I that asked me not

2595
01:47:33,649 --> 01:47:31,080
to use his name so I won't

2596
01:47:36,070 --> 01:47:33,659
um who came and reviewed some medical

2597
01:47:40,070 --> 01:47:36,080
things with me

2598
01:47:44,930 --> 01:47:40,080
so Tom DeLonge and his crew

2599
01:47:51,770 --> 01:47:48,770
were very kind and uh

2600
01:47:54,250 --> 01:47:51,780
I think I think we'll be hearing from

2601
01:47:57,229 --> 01:47:54,260
them soon

2602
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:57,239
well to the Stars Academy went their

2603
01:48:02,149 --> 01:47:58,800
separate ways in the sense obviously

2604
01:48:04,370 --> 01:48:02,159
that Lewis left Chris melon left and uh

2605
01:48:06,109 --> 01:48:04,380
James still stayed on board with Tom

2606
01:48:09,109 --> 01:48:06,119
Delong

2607
01:48:11,870 --> 01:48:09,119
um hopefully they continue to make some

2608
01:48:14,270 --> 01:48:11,880
progress in the UFO field I know Tom and

2609
01:48:16,609 --> 01:48:14,280
Jim are now focusing largely on the

2610
01:48:19,129 --> 01:48:16,619
entertainment side of the company but

2611
01:48:21,050 --> 01:48:19,139
with a view to still get the UFO message

2612
01:48:23,689 --> 01:48:21,060
out there through books through movies

2613
01:48:25,910 --> 01:48:23,699
through TV series and that's still on

2614
01:48:27,770 --> 01:48:25,920
the horizon so that's good to know

2615
01:48:29,689 --> 01:48:27,780
though that they did help and obviously

2616
01:48:33,709 --> 01:48:29,699
Lou has his own book coming out

2617
01:48:36,770 --> 01:48:33,719
hopefully late in 2023 is still the the

2618
01:48:38,810 --> 01:48:36,780
the publishing aspirational date I

2619
01:48:40,250 --> 01:48:38,820
believe I think I can say that not that

2620
01:48:42,109 --> 01:48:40,260
it's a secret but I think that's just

2621
01:48:43,609 --> 01:48:42,119
what they're working towards

2622
01:48:45,709 --> 01:48:43,619
um and that's that's one that should be

2623
01:48:48,649 --> 01:48:45,719
interesting as well and we know Lewis

2624
01:48:50,689 --> 01:48:48,659
spoken to people like yourself to the

2625
01:48:52,910 --> 01:48:50,699
bledsos you know the relationship with

2626
01:48:55,609 --> 01:48:52,920
Tom Delong Chris Merlin and his work so

2627
01:48:56,930 --> 01:48:55,619
that's one to look forward to uh listen

2628
01:48:58,430 --> 01:48:56,940
Terry you've been great with your time

2629
01:49:00,530 --> 01:48:58,440
and I've got a few listener questions I

2630
01:49:02,390 --> 01:49:00,540
want to get to I'd love to ask you one

2631
01:49:04,189 --> 01:49:02,400
more question from myself before we get

2632
01:49:06,470 --> 01:49:04,199
to those listener questions

2633
01:49:08,270 --> 01:49:06,480
what do you say to anyone listening to

2634
01:49:10,189 --> 01:49:08,280
this now who

2635
01:49:12,709 --> 01:49:10,199
like you has had an incredible

2636
01:49:14,930 --> 01:49:12,719
experience that they can't quantify they

2637
01:49:17,450 --> 01:49:14,940
don't know who to talk to about it what

2638
01:49:20,030 --> 01:49:17,460
would you recommend they do

2639
01:49:23,750 --> 01:49:20,040
they find someone to talk to

2640
01:49:25,430 --> 01:49:23,760
I I know that that's a vague answer

2641
01:49:28,310 --> 01:49:25,440
um in the United States I know that

2642
01:49:29,810 --> 01:49:28,320
there is a group called mufan Mutual UFO

2643
01:49:30,590 --> 01:49:29,820
Network

2644
01:49:33,090 --> 01:49:30,600
um

2645
01:49:35,450 --> 01:49:33,100
it had some controversy

2646
01:49:38,990 --> 01:49:35,460
[Music]

2647
01:49:40,189 --> 01:49:39,000
but you can usually find good people at

2648
01:49:43,370 --> 01:49:40,199
uh

2649
01:49:46,070 --> 01:49:43,380
at one of those meetings I I spoke at

2650
01:49:49,070 --> 01:49:46,080
the move on

2651
01:49:51,470 --> 01:49:49,080
uh meeting in Dallas and that's where I

2652
01:49:53,209 --> 01:49:51,480
met my friend who's the psychiatrist

2653
01:49:55,430 --> 01:49:53,219
you know and I ask him I said what's a

2654
01:49:56,750 --> 01:49:55,440
psychiatrist doing at this move-on

2655
01:49:58,310 --> 01:49:56,760
meeting

2656
01:49:59,510 --> 01:49:58,320
and he says well you know when I was in

2657
01:50:02,270 --> 01:49:59,520
medical school they taught me that

2658
01:50:04,189 --> 01:50:02,280
people that see UFOs are delusional

2659
01:50:06,770 --> 01:50:04,199
and he says but I've been practicing

2660
01:50:08,689 --> 01:50:06,780
medicine for 30 years and he said I

2661
01:50:10,430 --> 01:50:08,699
found that in my psychiatric practice

2662
01:50:11,990 --> 01:50:10,440
that I have a lot of people come to me

2663
01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:12,000
that are

2664
01:50:16,669 --> 01:50:14,400
they may have depression they may have

2665
01:50:18,290 --> 01:50:16,679
some type of mental issue that needs

2666
01:50:20,209 --> 01:50:18,300
addressing but they're not delusional

2667
01:50:24,410 --> 01:50:20,219
they're not people that are going to

2668
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:24,420
have hallucinations there are as sane

2669
01:50:30,229 --> 01:50:28,560
as you or I and he says it just now I I

2670
01:50:31,490 --> 01:50:30,239
believe there has to be something to

2671
01:50:33,109 --> 01:50:31,500
this stuff

2672
01:50:36,709 --> 01:50:33,119
so uh

2673
01:50:40,550 --> 01:50:36,719
you know talk talk to somebody uh email

2674
01:50:42,530 --> 01:50:40,560
me you know uh re read some books uh

2675
01:50:45,050 --> 01:50:42,540
email people get out get out there and

2676
01:50:47,450 --> 01:50:45,060
talk to people uh and know that you for

2677
01:50:49,910 --> 01:50:47,460
God's sake you're not alone uh don't

2678
01:50:52,010 --> 01:50:49,920
don't don't fret that you're uh

2679
01:50:54,530 --> 01:50:52,020
uh yeah some people might say I think

2680
01:50:56,330 --> 01:50:54,540
you're crazy but so what

2681
01:50:58,790 --> 01:50:56,340
so what

2682
01:51:00,410 --> 01:50:58,800
no it's good advice listen let's get to

2683
01:51:01,850 --> 01:51:00,420
a few questions in Teddy but like I say

2684
01:51:03,410 --> 01:51:01,860
you've been wonderful with your time and

2685
01:51:05,510 --> 01:51:03,420
people will never know this but we had

2686
01:51:07,129 --> 01:51:05,520
some tech issues at the start so we were

2687
01:51:09,109 --> 01:51:07,139
on with each other for almost 30 minutes

2688
01:51:09,950 --> 01:51:09,119
before we hit record so I do appreciate

2689
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:09,960
it

2690
01:51:14,750 --> 01:51:12,000
um listen uh first question from long

2691
01:51:17,270 --> 01:51:14,760
time listener Dave smethurst does Terry

2692
01:51:19,550 --> 01:51:17,280
think what he saw in the craft in terms

2693
01:51:21,649 --> 01:51:19,560
of body parts and such you mentioned

2694
01:51:23,930 --> 01:51:21,659
obviously the animal you saw were they

2695
01:51:26,330 --> 01:51:23,940
real or potentially generated Illusions

2696
01:51:28,070 --> 01:51:26,340
for you and what do you think that

2697
01:51:31,910 --> 01:51:28,080
others are potentially doing with these

2698
01:51:35,990 --> 01:51:33,530
you know that's an interesting question

2699
01:51:38,510 --> 01:51:36,000
I went back and forth with that for a

2700
01:51:41,330 --> 01:51:38,520
long time thinking

2701
01:51:43,850 --> 01:51:41,340
did this really happen to me

2702
01:51:46,729 --> 01:51:43,860
or was this a delusion that was planted

2703
01:51:48,590 --> 01:51:46,739
in my mind maybe by maybe by the Air

2704
01:51:49,129 --> 01:51:48,600
Force

2705
01:51:51,470 --> 01:51:49,139
um

2706
01:51:53,750 --> 01:51:51,480
you know I had the feeling that this

2707
01:51:56,030 --> 01:51:53,760
camping trip

2708
01:51:58,490 --> 01:51:56,040
was somehow orchestrated

2709
01:52:01,490 --> 01:51:58,500
you know I got nothing to point to that

2710
01:52:03,050 --> 01:52:01,500
to verify that as fact but

2711
01:52:04,910 --> 01:52:03,060
um

2712
01:52:09,169 --> 01:52:04,920
I've often wondered could what I have

2713
01:52:09,770 --> 01:52:09,179
seen have been all all a delusion all

2714
01:52:13,370 --> 01:52:09,780
um

2715
01:52:17,870 --> 01:52:15,169
so I guess that that's

2716
01:52:19,729 --> 01:52:17,880
possible I keep referring to the level

2717
01:52:22,070 --> 01:52:19,739
of influence that these things have over

2718
01:52:25,490 --> 01:52:22,080
us I think they can make us see whatever

2719
01:52:30,590 --> 01:52:27,950
uh follow up from Dave same same

2720
01:52:32,450 --> 01:52:30,600
listener has anyone from the military or

2721
01:52:35,090 --> 01:52:32,460
intelligence Community reached out to

2722
01:52:37,070 --> 01:52:35,100
you and given you any off the Record any

2723
01:52:39,530 --> 01:52:37,080
information off the Record about your

2724
01:52:41,149 --> 01:52:39,540
experience

2725
01:52:44,209 --> 01:52:41,159
yes

2726
01:52:46,189 --> 01:52:44,219
and no

2727
01:52:47,930 --> 01:52:46,199
okay obviously we've just mentioned that

2728
01:52:49,490 --> 01:52:47,940
you've spoken to Tom Delong spent some

2729
01:52:51,530 --> 01:52:49,500
time with Louis zondo and some of his

2730
01:52:52,729 --> 01:52:51,540
colleagues those are probably some of

2731
01:52:53,930 --> 01:52:52,739
the people that you would want to be

2732
01:52:57,590 --> 01:52:53,940
talking to about these kind of

2733
01:53:00,490 --> 01:52:57,600
experiences absolutely but other people

2734
01:53:03,830 --> 01:53:00,500
from other agencies

2735
01:53:06,609 --> 01:53:03,840
have knocked on my door and uh

2736
01:53:09,109 --> 01:53:06,619
expressed interest in talking to me

2737
01:53:11,149 --> 01:53:09,119
I've had some crazy things happen I've

2738
01:53:14,810 --> 01:53:11,159
had you know a flurry of helicopters

2739
01:53:18,470 --> 01:53:14,820
over my house weird I mean it's just

2740
01:53:22,550 --> 01:53:20,209
I'll just I'll just leave it there but

2741
01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:22,560
yeah

2742
01:53:27,290 --> 01:53:25,440
question from Ryan Teddy Ryan asks when

2743
01:53:28,970 --> 01:53:27,300
you are in the hospital and the officer

2744
01:53:31,729 --> 01:53:28,980
came in to talk to you about the event

2745
01:53:33,830 --> 01:53:31,739
how do you think he had found you and

2746
01:53:36,470 --> 01:53:33,840
how did he know about your particular

2747
01:53:39,290 --> 01:53:36,480
experience

2748
01:53:42,109 --> 01:53:39,300
he actually answered that question he

2749
01:53:44,570 --> 01:53:42,119
said that Toby had a backpack

2750
01:53:46,970 --> 01:53:44,580
and inside that backpack he had taken a

2751
01:53:49,250 --> 01:53:46,980
permanent marker that wrote his name and

2752
01:53:50,930 --> 01:53:49,260
his address his address was Whiteman Air

2753
01:53:53,689 --> 01:53:50,940
Force Base that's where we lived we were

2754
01:54:00,290 --> 01:53:53,699
living in NCO housing on the base

2755
01:54:01,729 --> 01:54:00,300
and uh the park rangers quote found our

2756
01:54:05,030 --> 01:54:01,739
little campsite

2757
01:54:07,189 --> 01:54:05,040
uh and then track down you know Toby's

2758
01:54:11,330 --> 01:54:07,199
uh backpack with the phone number in it

2759
01:54:13,790 --> 01:54:11,340
called the base and uh

2760
01:54:15,290 --> 01:54:13,800
base commander got involved OSI got

2761
01:54:18,590 --> 01:54:15,300
involved and that's the way the whole

2762
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:21,550
do you think

2763
01:54:25,129 --> 01:54:23,689
that backpack they may have never found

2764
01:54:27,649 --> 01:54:25,139
us but I think they would have anyway

2765
01:54:29,570 --> 01:54:27,659
right I think that there was no

2766
01:54:31,790 --> 01:54:29,580
escaping

2767
01:54:33,530 --> 01:54:31,800
I wondered Israel and also alluding to

2768
01:54:35,090 --> 01:54:33,540
and I'd be curious to know do you think

2769
01:54:37,490 --> 01:54:35,100
they had any direct or indirect

2770
01:54:40,270 --> 01:54:37,500
knowledge of their being an alien

2771
01:54:43,370 --> 01:54:40,280
abduction or some sort of encounter

2772
01:54:45,530 --> 01:54:43,380
based off of any military equipment they

2773
01:54:48,530 --> 01:54:45,540
had any monitoring they were doing or

2774
01:54:53,090 --> 01:54:48,540
even directly witnessing it themselves

2775
01:54:57,830 --> 01:54:55,970
when these two OSI agents came into my

2776
01:55:00,649 --> 01:54:57,840
hospital room

2777
01:55:03,290 --> 01:55:00,659
and started talking to me there's no

2778
01:55:05,510 --> 01:55:03,300
doubt in my mind these guys knew what I

2779
01:55:07,550 --> 01:55:05,520
saw

2780
01:55:10,189 --> 01:55:07,560
you know

2781
01:55:13,070 --> 01:55:10,199
at the end of their interrogation the

2782
01:55:17,030 --> 01:55:13,080
younger officer the captain left

2783
01:55:18,250 --> 01:55:17,040
and uh it was just me and this major in

2784
01:55:21,290 --> 01:55:18,260
the room

2785
01:55:23,629 --> 01:55:21,300
and he had turned the lights on during

2786
01:55:25,609 --> 01:55:23,639
the interrogation which really hurt my

2787
01:55:27,290 --> 01:55:25,619
eyes he reached over and turned the

2788
01:55:30,950 --> 01:55:27,300
lights off

2789
01:55:34,609 --> 01:55:30,960
and the head of my bed was near the door

2790
01:55:36,649 --> 01:55:34,619
and he had his hand against the door so

2791
01:55:38,629 --> 01:55:36,659
he would feel it if somebody started to

2792
01:55:40,850 --> 01:55:38,639
come in

2793
01:55:46,010 --> 01:55:40,860
and he got down next to my ear and he

2794
01:55:46,020 --> 01:55:50,030
I know what you saw

2795
01:55:55,129 --> 01:55:52,010
and I know you saw something and I think

2796
01:55:58,250 --> 01:55:56,450
and I

2797
01:56:00,830 --> 01:55:58,260
didn't know how to answer

2798
01:56:02,810 --> 01:56:00,840
and I didn't answer

2799
01:56:05,270 --> 01:56:02,820
and he says oh yeah he says I think you

2800
01:56:07,669 --> 01:56:05,280
know what I'm talking about

2801
01:56:09,649 --> 01:56:07,679
and he says all I want to know is how

2802
01:56:12,050 --> 01:56:09,659
many pictures you took of it

2803
01:56:14,510 --> 01:56:12,060
and you know without thinking

2804
01:56:16,490 --> 01:56:14,520
I blurted out I never took a single

2805
01:56:19,129 --> 01:56:16,500
photograph

2806
01:56:22,550 --> 01:56:19,139
and he just smiled because he just got

2807
01:56:27,169 --> 01:56:25,070
and uh

2808
01:56:29,090 --> 01:56:27,179
he seemed very satisfied with that no I

2809
01:56:31,070 --> 01:56:29,100
think they knew they knew everything I

2810
01:56:33,410 --> 01:56:31,080
don't know how they knew it

2811
01:56:35,450 --> 01:56:33,420
but they knew everything

2812
01:56:37,250 --> 01:56:35,460
and a final question that I think

2813
01:56:39,410 --> 01:56:37,260
follows on nicely from that and it's a

2814
01:56:42,709 --> 01:56:39,420
nice way to wrap up uh from Newman

2815
01:56:44,750 --> 01:56:42,719
Newman asks how far does Terry think uh

2816
01:56:47,810 --> 01:56:44,760
a potential cooperation between the US

2817
01:56:49,790 --> 01:56:47,820
government and ETS could go and even

2818
01:56:51,890 --> 01:56:49,800
further than that do you think there are

2819
01:56:54,169 --> 01:56:51,900
any Credence to the claims that there

2820
01:56:58,970 --> 01:56:54,179
are secret treaties and agreements in

2821
01:57:02,270 --> 01:57:01,310
you know there are three possibilities

2822
01:57:04,850 --> 01:57:02,280
here

2823
01:57:07,669 --> 01:57:04,860
and that is like I said earlier that

2824
01:57:12,770 --> 01:57:07,679
we're working hand in hand

2825
01:57:16,189 --> 01:57:12,780
with E.T towards some shared goal

2826
01:57:20,930 --> 01:57:16,199
you know and maybe we're trading uh

2827
01:57:26,750 --> 01:57:23,510
engineering secrets

2828
01:57:33,770 --> 01:57:31,430
uh and number two is that we could be

2829
01:57:35,810 --> 01:57:33,780
working under a written treaty

2830
01:57:38,570 --> 01:57:35,820
that defines the parameters of their

2831
01:57:40,070 --> 01:57:38,580
behavior and our Behavior we don't shoot

2832
01:57:43,250 --> 01:57:40,080
them down

2833
01:57:45,649 --> 01:57:43,260
you know they get to take uh

2834
01:57:48,169 --> 01:57:45,659
50 people a year from this park and 20

2835
01:57:50,030 --> 01:57:48,179
people from this park and it's all laid

2836
01:57:53,089 --> 01:57:50,040
out in a written agreement

2837
01:57:55,550 --> 01:57:53,099
and handshake and that's what that's

2838
01:57:59,209 --> 01:57:55,560
there's a controlling document that

2839
01:58:04,729 --> 01:58:02,870
third possibility is that they have the

2840
01:58:07,550 --> 01:58:04,739
ability to do what they want when they

2841
01:58:10,970 --> 01:58:07,560
want at any time

2842
01:58:13,430 --> 01:58:10,980
they may have spoke with our government

2843
01:58:15,290 --> 01:58:13,440
and said

2844
01:58:17,270 --> 01:58:15,300
we're in control we're going to do what

2845
01:58:19,669 --> 01:58:17,280
we want

2846
01:58:21,410 --> 01:58:19,679
don't mess with us

2847
01:58:24,770 --> 01:58:21,420
and uh

2848
01:58:25,970 --> 01:58:24,780
and they do that they do what they want

2849
01:58:28,490 --> 01:58:25,980
and

2850
01:58:30,649 --> 01:58:28,500
any one of those three possibilities are

2851
01:58:32,629 --> 01:58:30,659
as plausible as the other

2852
01:58:34,850 --> 01:58:32,639
but I

2853
01:58:37,850 --> 01:58:34,860
my gut tells me

2854
01:58:40,310 --> 01:58:37,860
that they do what they want because they

2855
01:58:44,149 --> 01:58:41,990
because I think they're that high above

2856
01:58:45,589 --> 01:58:44,159
us because of that thing that I had that

2857
01:58:47,470 --> 01:58:45,599
interaction with for a moment just

2858
01:58:52,729 --> 01:58:47,480
momentarily

2859
01:59:00,410 --> 01:58:57,410
it's it's ridiculous it's almost like

2860
01:59:01,970 --> 01:59:00,420
why would they bother to negotiate with

2861
01:59:04,910 --> 01:59:01,980
you know if you're gonna if you're going

2862
01:59:07,310 --> 01:59:04,920
to take a a lion off the Serengeti plane

2863
01:59:09,530 --> 01:59:07,320
and and plant them with a tracking

2864
01:59:11,870 --> 01:59:09,540
device and uh you know give them a

2865
01:59:13,790 --> 01:59:11,880
medical examination you know do you do

2866
01:59:16,550 --> 01:59:13,800
you communicate with them first no you

2867
01:59:18,649 --> 01:59:16,560
don't you just do it you just do it

2868
01:59:20,390 --> 01:59:18,659
you know and there's that disparity of

2869
01:59:22,910 --> 01:59:20,400
intellect that that the spirit of

2870
01:59:25,250 --> 01:59:22,920
intellect is huge think about this we've

2871
01:59:27,350 --> 01:59:25,260
been human sentient beings in our

2872
01:59:29,930 --> 01:59:27,360
current form for

2873
01:59:32,330 --> 01:59:29,940
say 200 000 years the numbers are all

2874
01:59:35,750 --> 01:59:32,340
over the place but in 200 000 years

2875
01:59:41,030 --> 01:59:35,760
we've domesticated dogs and cats cattle

2876
01:59:41,990 --> 01:59:41,040
sheep uh but like you know my cat

2877
01:59:45,649 --> 01:59:42,000
um

2878
01:59:48,709 --> 01:59:45,659
we have a relationship but after 2000

2879
01:59:52,729 --> 01:59:48,719
probably after 200 000 years

2880
01:59:55,310 --> 01:59:52,739
of domesticating animals we still can't

2881
01:59:56,209 --> 01:59:55,320
communicate with them I can walk in and

2882
01:59:59,030 --> 01:59:56,219
say

2883
02:00:01,129 --> 01:59:59,040
food served my cat will immediately know

2884
02:00:04,129 --> 02:00:01,139
what I'm talking about that's more of a

2885
02:00:07,250 --> 02:00:04,139
pavlovian response but I can't walk in

2886
02:00:08,330 --> 02:00:07,260
and say hey pal how was your day what'd

2887
02:00:11,450 --> 02:00:08,340
you do today

2888
02:00:14,990 --> 02:00:11,460
there's no communication at that level

2889
02:00:17,930 --> 02:00:15,000
and these things may be that high above

2890
02:00:20,270 --> 02:00:17,940
us that that that's the right analogy

2891
02:00:23,030 --> 02:00:20,280
because we can't tell them how our day

2892
02:00:25,850 --> 02:00:23,040
went because we don't have

2893
02:00:30,169 --> 02:00:27,830
that's a nice way to I think to to round

2894
02:00:31,910 --> 02:00:30,179
off Teddy just before we go you did

2895
02:00:35,750 --> 02:00:31,920
mention you wanted to give a little

2896
02:00:39,109 --> 02:00:35,760
shout out to a professor well I did uh

2897
02:00:41,209 --> 02:00:39,119
Professor Peter Cobble of University of

2898
02:00:44,750 --> 02:00:41,219
Liverpool uh sent me a nice email today

2899
02:00:46,070 --> 02:00:44,760
I I got to sit down and return his email

2900
02:00:48,770 --> 02:00:46,080
um so

2901
02:00:51,410 --> 02:00:48,780
yeah so I have quite a few friends over

2902
02:00:53,750 --> 02:00:51,420
there on that side of the world and uh

2903
02:00:56,330 --> 02:00:53,760
you know my best wishes to everyone and

2904
02:00:58,910 --> 02:00:56,340
uh thank you for being a a great host I

2905
02:01:00,770 --> 02:00:58,920
appreciate it no hopefully I've done

2906
02:01:02,510 --> 02:01:00,780
what I can to let you tell your story

2907
02:01:04,430 --> 02:01:02,520
not interrupt too much but there are so

2908
02:01:05,629 --> 02:01:04,440
many questions that I wanted to get to

2909
02:01:06,830 --> 02:01:05,639
and try and get to them at the right

2910
02:01:08,209 --> 02:01:06,840
times as well

2911
02:01:10,250 --> 02:01:08,219
um I'd love to have you back on to

2912
02:01:11,930 --> 02:01:10,260
discuss obviously the follow-up where

2913
02:01:13,609 --> 02:01:11,940
you're more generally talking about

2914
02:01:15,589 --> 02:01:13,619
other folk subductions I think there'll

2915
02:01:17,510 --> 02:01:15,599
be a great conversation there and room

2916
02:01:19,790 --> 02:01:17,520
for some speculation and some sharing

2917
02:01:21,649 --> 02:01:19,800
some stories as well that would be great

2918
02:01:23,330 --> 02:01:21,659
um how do you want people to best find

2919
02:01:25,790 --> 02:01:23,340
your work Terry is it through the

2920
02:01:28,609 --> 02:01:25,800
website or would it be Amazon or others

2921
02:01:29,930 --> 02:01:28,619
you know just uh just email me you know

2922
02:01:31,330 --> 02:01:29,940
there's some photographs that are

2923
02:01:34,070 --> 02:01:31,340
interesting on the website

2924
02:01:35,689 --> 02:01:34,080
terrylovelace.com if you wanna if you

2925
02:01:38,209 --> 02:01:35,699
want to talk to me or tell me your story

2926
02:01:41,450 --> 02:01:38,219
or ask me a question it's just Cherry

2927
02:01:42,410 --> 02:01:41,460
Lovelace yahoo.com

2928
02:01:45,890 --> 02:01:42,420
um

2929
02:01:47,750 --> 02:01:45,900
and uh drop me a line

2930
02:01:50,149 --> 02:01:47,760
and you can also get the book in audio

2931
02:01:51,709 --> 02:01:50,159
form as well that's a popular question I

2932
02:01:54,229 --> 02:01:51,719
get these days whenever I've got a guest

2933
02:01:55,490 --> 02:01:54,239
on talking about a printed work there

2934
02:01:58,070 --> 02:01:55,500
are some folks who just with modern

2935
02:01:59,930 --> 02:01:58,080
technology like the audio format the

2936
02:02:01,790 --> 02:01:59,940
book is obviously available in that

2937
02:02:03,290 --> 02:02:01,800
format too so make sure you grab

2938
02:02:05,570 --> 02:02:03,300
yourself a copy if you haven't already

2939
02:02:06,770 --> 02:02:05,580
and Terry I look forward to speaking to

2940
02:02:09,290 --> 02:02:06,780
you again in the future thanks for

2941
02:02:11,990 --> 02:02:09,300
joining me we will we will thank you

2942
02:02:14,750 --> 02:02:12,000
Andy best wishes best wishes to your

2943
02:02:16,430 --> 02:02:14,760
audience that is all for this week's

2944
02:02:18,709 --> 02:02:16,440
show thank you very much for listening

2945
02:02:21,229 --> 02:02:18,719
please remember to leave the podcast a

2946
02:02:23,750 --> 02:02:21,239
review on your chosen platform you can

2947
02:02:25,970 --> 02:02:23,760
like retweet And subscribe that would

2948
02:02:27,890 --> 02:02:25,980
all be very much appreciated the shows

2949
02:02:29,750 --> 02:02:27,900
are being uploaded onto YouTube as we

2950
02:02:32,209 --> 02:02:29,760
speak more and more you can sign up at

2951
02:02:34,430 --> 02:02:32,219
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2952
02:02:36,350 --> 02:02:34,440
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2953
02:02:39,530 --> 02:02:36,360
well please get in touch on Twitter

2954
02:02:43,370 --> 02:02:39,540
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2955
02:02:45,410 --> 02:02:43,380
course on Twitter it's at UFO UAP am and

2956
02:02:48,030 --> 02:02:45,420
again folks as always keep looking up

2957
02:03:15,170 --> 02:02:48,040
you never know what you might see

2958
02:04:49,330 --> 02:03:37,720
[Music]

2959
02:05:06,640 --> 02:04:53,190
can't sleep forever

2960
02:05:17,300 --> 02:05:17,290
[Music]

2961
02:05:17,300 --> 02:05:21,180
you can hear

2962
02:05:42,410 --> 02:05:27,270
[Music]

2963
02:05:51,470 --> 02:05:42,540
me